Quote from: SettembriniBut they are are marginalized, and after entering the internet discourse, I was laughed, mocked and marginalized too.

In any large internet forum or site-with-comments, everyone feels marginalised a significant chunk of the time.

It has nothing to do with you.

Levi,
 
I can live with being personally marginalized. I shrug and walk off. But too many sane people have done so, the counter-weight is sorely needed. Swinery is alive and kicking, on the internet.
And I´m not going to shrug and walk off. Too many people have done so. In germany it´s extreme: very few bright people care for US-Sites, even if they speak and understand english good enough. Thusly, they exclude themselves/are excluded from reflection upon the hobby and from developments. I fear many US-Gamers do likewise, even those who would otherwise be interested in discourse. Just think about the Dragon´s Landing audience! So many voicemails from listeners, who would totally benefit from general internet gaming debate. The are already on the internet, mind you. They aren´t phantom gamers.
More dangerous though, is the poisoning of internet debate: the Swine have destroyed any feeling of cameraderie that used to surround gaming. Bitterness and passive-agressive behaviour rules supreme.
That´s why sane people should take up the flag against sophistry, false wisdom, lawncrappers and the like. That´s why the Pundits crusade is worthwhile and needed. That´s why the Vision of theRPGsite is a good one. But truth to be told, the established forae have such a large drawing power (reviews! jargon! eShops!), that theRPGsite will have a hard time being more than a small island of sanity in this ocean of pretentious stupidity. Ron Edwards "forged" himself an island of reasoned and regulated debate to his liking, but the swine overtook the theory section. It was closed down.
Regular Joes, Adventure Gamers (like I used to be) are still without a home.
Only the crusader Settembrini has found a place to rest, but regular joe gamers will most likely not find theRPGsite. Therefore the battle is on.
And it´s a matter of intellectual hygiene to not give in to the masses of false arguments, pretentious product picks as well as general hostility to regular gaming. It´s even more a matter of hygiene to smash the arguments of those false prophets whereever you see them.

Quote from: SettembriniMore dangerous though, is the poisoning of internet debate: the Swine have destroyed any feeling of cameraderie that used to surround gaming. Bitterness and passive-agressive behaviour rules supreme.
That´s why sane people should take up the flag against sophistry, false wisdom, lawncrappers and the like. That´s why the Pundits crusade is worthwhile and needed.

I can find some agreement with that position. I certainly don't think, by any stretch of the imagination or will, that Pundit should be waving the rally flag for that crusade.

QuoteAnd it´s a matter of intellectual hygiene to not give in to the masses of false arguments, pretentious product picks as well as general hostility to regular gaming. It´s even more a matter of hygiene to smash the arguments of those false prophets whereever you see them.

Preferably without using their weapons. False arguments, knee-jerk product choices and intense vitriolic hostility to non-Viking-Hat GMing aren't any better for 'Adventure Gaming' than they are for anything else.

I agree that a place for reasonable discourse that isn't rpg.net or the Forge - each for their own reasons - is something 'Adventure Gaming' could use on the internet. However, I think Pundit is more of a roadblock to that goal, excepting that he's got control of this site, than he is any kind of help whatsoever. YMMV.

Re OP: I find the Moron Law quite adversarial in its writing. Though I agree with you that challenging players and making them earn their triumph the hard way is always a good thing, the text reeks to me of GM vs player attitude. As some other posters have said, as a personal style it can work, no doubt, but I wouldn't use it as a general law (note that the Monarda Law is not intended as a universal law).

Re Pundit mischaracterization of Nobilis (and every game /style / person he hates): I firmly believe that the Pundit has indeed read Nobilis. I also firmly believe that he makes a distorted interpretation of the text that suits his personal vendetta, this vendetta being born of a bad personal experience that in no way reflects the general experience of everyone.

I think that, in many times, the Pundit fails to back his vitriol with some actual play examples. Or examples of any kind. That usually happens when he talks about games he hate viscerally, so you're not going to get any rational answer from him. It's fun to read (at least for me), but not very useful.

Re Settembrini's defence of the Pundit: I find your experience quite interesting, though it differs greatly from mine. But I would dispute with you that the RPGPundit stands against the stupidity on Internet: you don't fight stupidity with stupidity (as we find when he gets all crazed). Though I will agree with the idea that some indie fans are a bunch of pretentious idiots, the same could be said of the fans of any style of gaming. And frankly, when the Pundit starts gloating about REAL roleplayers, how ADRPG makes you grow a huge dick, and similar things, it doesn't get any more pretentious and elitist.

QuoteHowever, I think Pundit is more of a roadblock to that goal, excepting that he's got control of this site, than he is any kind of help whatsoever. YMMV.

This might well be.
My main point was that the war is real.
Pundit is right with that one.
 
Maybe Pundit´s methods are not the solution. See, I have used other methods at other instances for the exact same reasoning. But, and that´s a big but, there are enough people who don´t even see the need for change or counter-balance. And that´s were the Pundit comes in.
 
Would Steven Colbert be a good president?
No, but that´s not his job.
 
Is Pundit a good crusader?
No. (Although he truly publicly humiliated Nickchick. A lurking indie game designer, who shall remain unnamed, is still shaking his head about the performance she presented in that Nutkinland thread about the origins of True20)
 
But he´s one hell of a Jesuit-Orator when it cames to inflammatory (in the best sense) speaches. It´s us who have to do the fighting, even when it means settling in the enemy land and adopting some of their culture to thrive.
 
If we take the easy path, the path of shrugging and walking, their poison will spread and fester. Look at Ken Hite! He lost all his coolness and adventureos MoJo due to all the internet craptasm.
 
The only sane gamers left alive on the internet seem to be jrients and Dr.Rotwang! and Zachary. The storms of pretentiousness moves around them, and they keep their hats on.
 
Sad times, indeed.

QuoteAnd frankly, when the Pundit starts gloating about REAL roleplayers, how ADRPG makes you grow a huge dick, and similar things, it doesn't get any more pretentious and elitist.

He who wrestles with the Swine is bound to get dirty.

Quote from: SettembriniHe who wrestles with the Swine is bound to get dirty.

Dude, you can do far better than this. And I don't share your pesimistic assessment of the situation of Internet debate.

I find Dr. Rotwang!'s rebirth into balls-out adventure style gaming to be the Mahdi's footprints in the sand, and I must follow him into the deep desert to learn his ways. It's fortunate you can see that tie from space, in that regard. He is leading my brain into the light out of the darkness, so to speak; I'm just filling up my pockets with shadows so my future light shows are a little more interesting, to over-stretch my metaphor.

And I don't see the death of the hobby following from "This debate is bullshit; where's my laser blaster and grav pack, I'm gonna shoot some GFS?"; isn't that, not to put too fine a point on it, the fucking hobby itself? Not talking about campaign settings, not arguing over whether dice or cards are a better randomizer, and most certainly not leaping around jabbering like a baboon in a moist heavy diaper; giving a big shrug to all this pointless jiggery-pokery and having some fun in an interesting setting with dice and snacks and friends. I mean, we got this done before there WAS an internet, didn't we?

But as for why I'd get involved in this whole thread, why I don't think Pundit is in any way good for the hobby? Because he sets himself up as a gaming authority, based on his 0 published works and his next-to-0 name recognition, and fucking lies to your face, assuming he's not just too stupid to comprehend words that he reads. The best case scenario is that he's our Dan Quayle; the worst case, the one exposed in this thread and any other time he talks about a game he doesn't like, he's our Cheney, our Reverend Robinson, our Santorum. He is, simply put, poisonous to any reasonable gaming movement that doesn't feel the need to crush all other styles under its collective boot. I don't know who we need, but it sure as shit ain't him.

Pity no-one sane gives a shit about all this.

Quote from: RPGPunditSee my answer over in the other thread on this topic.

Hum. You do realize that those are little different from the spurious example of "Can I find a hydrogen bomb in this medieval dungeon?" The group should already at that point know that Nobilis doesn't encourage the GM to hand out "+25 swords of dragonslaying" to the PCs whenever they wish. Instead, it advices against trying to stop them if they want find out whether there are such weapons, and if so, where. One possible response might be: "Swords of Dragonslaying, eh? Such blades have in fact been crafted by the blacksmiths of Jotunheim many worlds away, to be used against the wyrm Nithog, but it's rare to see those elsewhere. You could visit the giants when there's more time."

Quote from: SettembriniBut he´s one hell of a Jesuit-Orator when it cames to inflammatory (in the best sense) speaches. It´s us who have to do the fighting, even when it means settling in the enemy land and adopting some of their culture to thrive.

You know, I actually prefer the Pundit when he isn't making with the shouting and swearing. Not because I am a fragile flower who wilts when someone says "fuck", but because few rhetorical techniques are more tired than Trying Too Hard and Thinking You're Hunter S. Thompson, two ploys which unfortunately go together a little too frequently.

Also, he slips too often into the trap of declaring other types of gaming to be bad and wrong, which, er, is the major crime of Ron Edwards and the Swine. I'm not sure how sincere he is on that point, but the Pundit is frankly being an arsehole when he does it, just as Ron Edwards and the Swine are arseholes when they decry the Pundit's playing style.

Bottom line: if you're going to claim your playing style is the best, you'd better have an excellent argument to back that up. The Swine don't have that, Ron Edwards doesn't, and nor does the Pundit.

Quote from: TonyLBYes, of course Pundit.  The fact that many people think you are wrong on this is unquestionable proof that you are, in fact, right.  There is no other possible explanation.

The fact that certain specific people, like you, are squealing loudly about this, is unquestionable proof that I'm not only right but getting you all where it hurts.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThe fact that certain specific people, like you, are squealing loudly about this, is unquestionable proof that I'm not only right but getting you all where it hurts.

RPGPundit

Following your faulty logic, that guy that made a parody portraiting you as a racist homophobe should have been right, shouldn't he? After all, you were squealing loudly about it, so that's an unquestionable proof of some kind.

Quote from: Christmas ApeBut as for why I'd get involved in this whole thread, why I don't think Pundit is in any way good for the hobby? Because he sets himself up as a gaming authority, based on his 0 published works and his next-to-0 name recognition, and fucking lies to your face, assuming he's not just too stupid to comprehend words that he reads. The best case scenario is that he's our Dan Quayle; the worst case, the one exposed in this thread and any other time he talks about a game he doesn't like, he's our Cheney, our Reverend Robinson, our Santorum. He is, simply put, poisonous to any reasonable gaming movement that doesn't feel the need to crush all other styles under its collective boot. I don't know who we need, but it sure as shit ain't him.

Pity no-one sane gives a shit about all this.

Boy, I don't think you know what war we're fighting here... we're not the ones doing the crushing, we're the ones trying to bite at the boot and shouting "don't tread on me".

That's why y'all need me. You're not going to get anywhere with the Swine by being nice, or by saying "Live and let live". We tried all that before, and they've shown that they need, as part of their raison d'etre, to subvert mainstream gaming.
So we need to wipe them out, or at the very least kick them to the curb of our hobby.

Their weapons are dirty rhetoric, jargon that empowers their side's position, and interpretations of constructed reality.
Therefore our weapons must be smarter more-capable rhetoric, the re-definition of jargon to subvert their positions, and interpretation-shattering Truths.

Now, I don't know what you think I'm up to here. I have claimed no "authority" as a gaming "personality", other than the authority of being a gamer. I'm just a man who would have been happy playing my games and shooting shit on the internet, until the Swine swarmed all over the internet turning it into an unfriendly place.
But shit, boy, I'm no candidate for fucking president; I'm just apparently the only guy who actually knows how to beat these fuckers at the battle they're fighting. That's why they hate me, and fear me, so much.

Its not pretty, but if you really believe there's a "reasonable gaming movement" that can include both the normal gamers and the Swine, you've got your head so far up your ass you can see your esophagus.
They're out to slice your stomach open and gnaw at your intestines, and you're trying to invite them for fucking tea.

RPGPundit

Quote from: GrimGentHum. You do realize that those are little different from the spurious example of "Can I find a hydrogen bomb in this medieval dungeon?" The group should already at that point know that Nobilis doesn't encourage the GM to hand out "+25 swords of dragonslaying" to the PCs whenever they wish. Instead, it advices against trying to stop them if they want find out whether there are such weapons, and if so, where. One possible response might be: "Swords of Dragonslaying, eh? Such blades have in fact been crafted by the blacksmiths of Jotunheim many worlds away, to be used against the wyrm Nithog, but it's rare to see those elsewhere. You could visit the giants when there's more time."

So you're saying.. "no".

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditIts not pretty, but if you really believe there's a "reasonable gaming movement" that can include both the normal gamers and the Swine, you've got your head so far up your ass you can see your esophagus.
They're out to slice your stomach open and gnaw at your intestines, and you're trying to invite them for fucking tea.

Wow.  You're not merely high on your own rhetoric.  You're actually insane.  I didn't realize until now.

Cool!