...for a 20th Anniversary Edition.

http://blog.vampirethemasquerade.com/

The book itself is looking really good, kind of a "Vampire: The Masquerade Rules Cyclopedia" compiling every clan, bloodline, discipline, faction etc. ever. Plus original Tim Bradstreet art, what's not to love?

Also check out the obligatory RPGnet thread for some epic WW oWoD vs. nWoD butthurt.

I barely cared about V:TM because I thought the line was too big and there were too many story lawyers. Hell, a one with everything book is really appealing.

I've always liked the idea of running a WoD city and tried my hand at it now and then for Mage. This book might make me take a crack at Vampire.

Kind of hoping they leave out the essays on "here's how to tell a story", though, if they're aiming this at "experienced" gamers.  I'll take the system bits and do whatever I want with them, but I hate the whole "Vampire is different from regular RPGs...because we say so!"

Quote from: Peregrin;447177Kind of hoping they leave out the essays on "here's how to tell a story", though, if they're aiming this at "experienced" gamers.  I'll take the system bits and do whatever I want with them, but I hate the whole "Vampire is different from regular RPGs...because we say so!"

It kind of is though, and I think there advice is valuable. Game masters are like painters that never go to school to learn different techniques. They usually just find a shtick and stick to it. You know the type of painter I'm talking about, the one everyone thinks is great but is really a one trick pony.

Even though most groups just play Vampire like it's Heroes Unlimited or Shadow Run, doesn't mean that was the designers idea. They were trying to do something different with it and I can't blame them.

I'm not arguing against having a technique, I just think that their advice in particular makes for shitty games.  Illusionism is not fun, and just leads to power-play between bull-headed players and a GM with a "story."

If I want to focus play specifically on creating a story, there are plenty of story-games for that (much better ones, IMO).  Otherwise I'm going to treat the ruleset like any other RPG -- it models the world, and story is the product of play, rather than the goal.

Quote from: Cranewings;447180It kind of is though, and I think there advice is valuable. Game masters are like painters that never go to school to learn different techniques. They usually just find a shtick and stick to it. You know the type of painter I'm talking about, the one everyone thinks is great but is really a one trick pony.

Even though most groups just play Vampire like it's Heroes Unlimited or Shadow Run, doesn't mean that was the designers idea. They were trying to do something different with it and I can't blame them.

Speaking as a long time Vampire (Masquerade and Requiem) fan: I don't think the Storyteller games are any different, on a fundamental level, from other, traditional RPGs. Sure Vampire is as different from D&D as, say, Call of Cthulhu is different from Traveller. But the bits and pieces, the fundamental underlying assumptions, are the same. And none of them have been invented by WW, Mark Rein*Hagen's claims to the contrary notwithstanding.

But what most people take exception to is the idea that "Vampire is a new/revolutionary/superior/smarter/etc. breed of RPG", best expressed in the original WW slogan, "Games For Mature Minds". This was a bad idea, quickly recognized as such, and abandoned as soon as Mark Rein*Hagen dropped off (circa 1995) and WW started to shape up to be less of an artsy-fartsy gaming "studio", and more of a real, honest-to-God game company.

Nonetheless, even though they've abandoned any claims to intellectual or artistic superiority for nearly 15 years, a lot of people (Pundy for one) are still butthurt.

Quote from: Peregrin;447183I'm not arguing against having a technique, I just think that their advice in particular makes for shitty games.  Illusionism is not fun, and just leads to power-play between bull-headed players and a GM with a "story."

Aye, maybe because of the whole "storytelling" byline, the oWoD in general suffered from very bad, railroady set-piece adventures. Transylvania Chronicles is the only decent V:tM adventure I have personal experience with, and even then its quality is very irregular, with some good installments and some very lukewarm moments. And I say this as someone who used to be a big fan of the metaplot back in the day.

Which is a pity because supplements like Chicago By Night provide great framework for a "sandbox", do-as-thou-wilt game. Wanna stick it to Prince and ride with the Anarchs? Carve a little kingdom for yourself in some inner city shithole run-down neighborhood, and pay lip service to the Prince? Join the Sheriff's Hounds and bring Final Death to the Sabbat shovelheads? Play the Elysium game with the Harpies? Now imagine four players each doing one of these, and you have a good grasp of what my V:tM games were like.

Honestly, I haven't paid much attention to it. I worked in a game store from 96-98 where Vampire was big with a large goth crowd. There was a massive larp with about 50-60 people and it was very, very artsy fartsy. I was never butt hurt by it, but it always struck me as very different.

Quote from: Cranewings;447180It kind of is though, and I think there advice is valuable.

Their advice is shit, the whole "storytelling" approach being like the green kryptonite of regular RPGs and sandbox play, as far as I'm concerned.

That said, I love Vampire: the Masquerade. It's one of the games I know best and ran the longest. To me, it's still one of the best RPGs ever made, despite the "storytelling" flaw. It actually is at its best in 'by Night' sandbox play, where you set up a city of your choosing, populate it of various groups, factions, NPCs etc, and unleash the PCs in the environment with goals on their own choosing (i.e. discovering who's behind what, make it as a major force to reckon with in town, find out "the truth" about this or that mystery in town, fulfill some revenge, etc etc etc).

Now, if only the actual game play advice reflected this excellence, instead of diverting the fledging GM into some sort of artsy railraody scenes chronicle artsy bullshit the authors fancy, that'd be awesome.

I still have most of my VtM books, so I'm unlikely to purchase this new book, unless it blows everything out of the water, comes back to 2nd ed rules with some specifically targeted fixes, includes the Player's Guide material, disciplines over 5 dots, Elysium rules, Sabbat and Black Hand material (though specifically separated from the rest of the work in chapters of their own, instead of everything mixed together like in 3rd ed), and so on, so forth. Then I might decide to get it at some point. No rush for me, though.

Quote from: Peregrin;447183I'm not arguing against having a technique, I just think that their advice in particular makes for shitty games.  Illusionism is not fun, and just leads to power-play between bull-headed players and a GM with a "story."

Totally. 100% spot on.

Hey, I prefer the sandbox style WW city to the spoon fed story game myself, but I've known a lot of people that eat up that WW story telling like ice cream on a hot day. They love it.

The system is based around encouraging the railroad anyway. If you have three dice and I have six dice, guess what, you can't beat me. There is no way around it. You can pretend it is a sandbox, but if I have six dice there isn't really a contest.

The ease with which the GM can stat characters so that they can't beat the players, or can't be beaten by them, is the whole fucking point of the dice system.

Quote from: Peregrin;447183I'm not arguing against having a technique, I just think that their advice in particular makes for shitty games.  Illusionism is not fun, and just leads to power-play between bull-headed players and a GM with a "story."

Only if your players don't want to play along. If your players want to play along, then it is awesome.

Quote from: Cranewings;447190Hey, I prefer the sandbox style WW city to the spoon fed story game myself, but I've known a lot of people that eat up that WW story telling like ice cream on a hot day. They love it.

Quote from: Cranewings;447191Only if your players don't want to play along. If your players want to play along, then it is awesome.

Dude, some people enjoy masturbating with their blow-up dolls. Doesn't mean that masturbating with a blow-up doll makes for a good role-playing game. It makes for good masturbation, maybe. If you're really, really lonely.

Quote from: Cranewings;447190The system is based around encouraging the railroad anyway. If you have three dice and I have six dice, guess what, you can't beat me. There is no way around it. You can pretend it is a sandbox, but if I have six dice there isn't really a contest.

Now you're talking utter non-sense. By this same token, any character that has double your stats can't ever be beaten in a role playing game. This is completely ignoring that the game is not the rules, and the rules are not the game. Part of VtM is to be able to play at your level and build alliances, manipulate people who are tougher than you to act how you want them to, blackmail, blood bond, shift sects and allegiances when you have to, etc etc. If you're just gaming the rules, you're basically ignoring what makes an RPG an actual RPG in the first place.

I mean. Seriously. I remember a game where people made fun of me because I wanted to play a Nosferatu, I was 12th generation, the others where all in the 8th/7th generation range due to diablerie and other bullshit, and I took two of them out with my ghouls when they tried to invade my lair, and ended up blood-bonding a third. If you're starting with the assumption that because you've got three more dots than me in melee you're going to get the upper hand on me, you just wait. My buddies are going to kick your ass.

Now that said, if you think playing your way is enjoyable, by all means, keep on playing the way you enjoy, but don't tell me that every player is automatically railroaded by the game system. You railroad yourself as soon as you yield to some parameters of the rules, it doesn't have to be the case. It's not the only way to play the game.

Quote from: Cranewings;447190The ease with which the GM can stat characters so that they can't beat the players, or can't be beaten by them, is the whole fucking point of the dice system.

Nope. That may be the outlook of GMs who choose to suck, but that doesn't have to be the case. :hatsoff:

Benoist, (; you know I don't like story gaming enough to defend it right.

Quote from: The Butcher;447175Also check out the obligatory RPGnet thread for some epic WW oWoD vs. nWoD butthurt.

Checked the thread. Information about the contents is blowing me away I must say.


What’s in it?

• All thirteen original clans, clan variants and bloodlines, with their signature Disciplines
• Rules for character creation and advancement from Neonate to Methuselah
• All the Disciplines from level one through nine
• Updated setting to the modern nights
• New full color original art by Tim Bradstreet & other classic “Masquerade” artists
• An “open community play test” development process

Apparently, this includes all bloodlines and rules, including Dark Ages, the only bloodlines being omitted being the Ebony Kingdoms clans, the Kuei-Jin, and the Bushi/Gaki. Which is awesome. No Kuei-Jin = Win, to me.

Impressive.

Quote from: Cranewings;447197Benoist, (; you know I don't like story gaming enough to defend it right.

I have to admit I was counting on it.