http://www.livingdice.com/5870/an-open-letter-to-save-3rd-party-dungeons-and-dragons-companies/

The money quote:

"On Friday, February 25th, I received a phone call from a writer experienced in 4th Edition wishing to produce his product. He had previously been tied to another major publisher that had recently dropped its 4th Edition lineup in favor of Paizo's Pathfinder which they claim had been growing in sales to the extent of surpassing their 4th Edition products. This is not an isolated incident but only the latest symptom, following in the wake of similar announcements from Mongoose and Goodman Games. For all intents and purposes, despite declarations from fanboys on both sides about whether Pathfinder or D&D is the better seller, it is now glaringly obvious that from the 3rd party publisher outlook, the winner has been decided."

At the end of the day I stick with my opinion. D&D 4E is like David Fincher's "Seven": you had to know the whole story before commenting, but you needed only five minutes to understand that it wouldn't end well.

Quote from: Reckall;444827http://www.livingdice.com/5870/an-open-letter-to-save-3rd-party-dungeons-and-dragons-companies/

The money quote:

"On Friday, February 25th, I received a phone call from a writer experienced in 4th Edition wishing to produce his product. He had previously been tied to another major publisher that had recently dropped its 4th Edition lineup in favor of Paizo's Pathfinder which they claim had been growing in sales to the extent of surpassing their 4th Edition products. This is not an isolated incident but only the latest symptom, following in the wake of similar announcements from Mongoose and Goodman Games. For all intents and purposes, despite declarations from fanboys on both sides about whether Pathfinder or D&D is the better seller, it is now glaringly obvious that from the 3rd party publisher outlook, the winner has been decided."

At the end of the day I stick with my opinion. D&D 4E is like David Fincher's "Seven": you had to know the whole story before commenting, but you needed only five minutes to understand that it wouldn't end well.

Wow, I'm sort of blown away by the sentiment in this proposal:

QuoteTALK ABOUT US
Simply put, with the many blogs and official press releases WOTC issues, reserve a section to mention the products being released by third-party companies.

...which amounts to "give us free advertising."  WotC spends their advertising dollars promoting their own product, as any company with something to sell does.  Why should they give freebies to 3rd party companies?  

Also, this:

QuoteREWARD US
Although there are perhaps dozens of products that may not reach your level of quality, if one does come about, acknowledge them. Perhaps even special awards dedicated to only 3rd party products.

GIMME A TROPHY!!!  Seriously, did this guy not get hugged enough as a child?

The comments are pretty good below the letter aswell(usually i avoid them but this time there actually pretty valid), they are abit overun with paizo fans though but tbh thats to be expected when you post such a pathetic open letter on a random site that will probably never be seen by anyone who will give a shit.

It sounds to me like he still wants to be in the 4E game and is offering some simple suggestions to Wizards that will help keep 3rd party publishers on board. My only question is how important 3rd party publishers are to the growth of 4E. If they don't impact wizard's sales, then his suggestions won't really matter. But I don't see a problem with him suggesting the changes.

Even given the ire WotC raises in me, I find the "you must mention our products on your page" thing fucking hilarious.

"Dear Ford, your service is too awesome, please tell people to come to our shop instead.  Love. AAMCO."

"Dear Democrats, you still have 2/3rds of the government under your party control, we have good stuff too, please tell people to register and vote Republican.  Yours, The Republican Party."

"Dear Trader Joe's.  Could you see your way to maybe mention that some of the stuff we sell here at Chamberlains is just as good if not a little less expensive than what you sell?  Friends 4 evar, Chamberlains."

...and so on.

No need to save WOTC or DD4e.  If everyone prefers Pathfinder, and PF is easier for 3pp, then that's what will get sales, players, and 3pp. Paizo carries the torch of OGL and tweaked a game most still appreciated while WOTC insulates itself with paranoia and greed; it's not hard to figure out this was going to happen.

You can peruse this forum and others with new publishers trying to control game mechanics, or adhere to old models, and it's a shame. Look at Posthuman Studios.  Look at Paizo.  This is how you succeed in the hobby market.  Smaller publishers can be successful, but you have to pay attention to how the enthusiasts are spending money, how to market your game, and what is working in the here and now.

The model is changing. Adapt or perish.

I am fairly certain WOTC will not adapt. This kind of market "correction" tends to be good for an industry.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Pathfinder fans are generally more aware of the broader industry and more likely to purchase third party products.

That is to say while I believe Pathfinder might be neck and neck or even pulling ahead some of the time, its very nature makes it more likely to draw sales for third party publishers.

This article reads like a last ditch attempt at grasping straws, before the company closes up shop and turns out the lights.

(Though I wonder if they will end up defecting eventually to the Pathfinder 3PP camp).


It sort of reminds of those articles/posts by Joseph Goodman talking about 4E D&D back in 2009, but with a more pessimistic tone.

http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com/2009/06/really-funny-comment-on-joe-goodmans.html

Quote from: trechriron;444834No need to save WOTC or DD4e.  If everyone prefers Pathfinder, and PF is easier for 3pp, then that's what will get sales, players, and 3pp. Paizo carries the torch of OGL and tweaked a game most still appreciated while WOTC insulates itself with paranoia and greed; it's not hard to figure out this was going to happen.

You can peruse this forum and others with new publishers trying to control game mechanics, or adhere to old models, and it's a shame. Look at Posthuman Studios.  Look at Paizo.  This is how you succeed in the hobby market.  Smaller publishers can be successful, but you have to pay attention to how the enthusiasts are spending money, how to market your game, and what is working in the here and now.

The model is changing. Adapt or perish.

I am fairly certain WOTC will not adapt. This kind of market "correction" tends to be good for an industry.

WoTc created this "new model" you're talking about with the OGL- and they also created their own largest competitor.  The reason Piazo exists is because WoTC accidentally left the door open and thier wallet on the kitchen table. I can't see how repeating this mistake is going to help them at all. Opening 4e up like they did 3e would almost certainly lead to the creation of yet another major competitor at the moment 5e is announced. Furthermore, Piazo has been a major player for what, like 3 or 4 years? It is way too early to tell if their model is going to be successful in the long term. For instance, how will they avoid the edition treadmill?

Quote from: Aos;444847For instance, how will they avoid the edition treadmill?

By adopting the "Call of Cthulhu" model of subsequent editions?

Threre's also the Palladium model, where they just keep on cranking out a zillion RIFTS splatbooks which can be used with the original RIFTS core book.

Yeah, if Pathfinder can get into Palladium mode it might really shake the foundations over at WotC.

5th edition, 6th edition, 7th edition all while Pathfinder holds to a single edition?  Yeah that would really be in Paizo's favor.

One aspect of the Palladium model is letting books go out of print for years and then reprinting them which has the advantage of building up new demand without having to do much new work.

Quote from: ggroy;444849By adopting the "Call of Cthulhu" model of subsequent editions?

Threre's also the Palladium model, where they just keep on cranking out a zillion RIFTS splatbooks which can be used with the original RIFTS core book.

Neither Chaosium nor Palladium really represent business models to emulate though; they have strong customer bases due to legacy, but those customer bases have little to no growth.

Quote from: David Johansen;444851Yeah, if Pathfinder can get into Palladium mode it might really shake the foundations over at WotC.

5th edition, 6th edition, 7th edition all while Pathfinder holds to a single edition?  Yeah that would really be in Paizo's favor.

One aspect of the Palladium model is letting books go out of print for years and then reprinting them which has the advantage of building up new demand without having to do much new work.

How will they shake things up- by going broke?  That'll show those assholes over at Wizards!

Better yet, they could follow the previous D&D model. Put out a functional, but somewhat reviled version of the game (2e), over issue splat books and let the brand idle for a few years and then release a new edition to a hungry audience (3e).  With 4e wotc  is already half way there.

Quote from: Aos;444847.....................exists is because WoTC accidentally left the door open and thier wallet on the kitchen table.....................

Accidentally?

There was no 'accidentally' about it at all.

Ryan Dancey did it intentionally back in 2000 and 2004.

So did a few other designers/writers of OGL/3.X D&D back in those years.  Go back and look at interviews of those guys - it was intentional.  If WotC ever screwed things up, there would always be a version of the Dungeons & Dragons that they created in 2000 available - thats the back door they gave themselves and gamers.


- Ed C.