Quote from: Esgaldil;428987Spike - I submit that the question is even less serious, something like "What excuse would allow seven totally different sci-fi/fantasy/pulp/horror genres to coexist with cowboys?"

See also: Brisco County, Jr.

My formulation of the question was to address the apparent premise assumed by this thread.

Quote from: jgants;428845Normally, I might agree that RPGs should gloss over the racial and gender issues of the past.  I don't in this case, however, because it was a core part of the CSA and their beliefs.

I think that's a good general rule to follow.  The problem with that here is that years of propaganda by Lost Cause advocates have convinced an awful lot of people who don't know any better (but probably should) that the CSA and Civil War wasn't all about slavery or even significantly about slavery, which it was.  

Quote from: jgants;428845It's the same way I'd be offended by a WWII "reimagining" that featured a kinder, gentler Hitler who runs the German army with his best pal, Field Marshall Bernie Goldstein.

How about "reimagining" the Soviet Union to be a kindler gentler place resembling what was found on propaganda posters, or at least downplaying the gulags and mass murder, like this (which was adapted as an RPG setting) or this, which one could also argue is offensive.





I sometimes think that we were lucky that the Nazis were just so unequivocally over-the-top evil that it's nigh-impossible to apologize for them or romanticize them without looking evil, otherwise, we probably would see a lot more romanticization of them the way people do romanticize the CSA, 20th century communism, the French Revolution, and, oh yeah, I probably shouldn't forget this:



At least Klan romanticism seems to be long dead:

Quote from: RPGPundit;428874Its a godwin, but basically yes.  And let's face it, certain military-geeks love the confederacy and the nazis alike, because they're obsessed with either their generals, or their strategy, or their cool uniforms, or their tech (not so much the latter in the case of the CSA), or their general "attitude", and at the same time they're too autistic to understand the monstrousness of the racism inherent in both cultures.  Its not that the geeks in question are racists themselves, they're just too retarded at the basic social-emotional level to understand that you can't just say "ok yeah, they had some slaves/killed some jews but that's not what i care about, what i care about was their awesome uniforms and accents!",  that this is not in fact an acceptable excuse for hailing them.



RPGPundit

It's right up there with people who think commisars in 40k are cool. Communists have killed more people than anyone else in the history of the world, but you're not allowed to say that, or the Left might get their panties in a bind.

Quote from: danbuter;429006It's right up there with people who think commisars in 40k are cool. Communists have killed more people than anyone else in the history of the world...

Excepting capitalists, of course. The body count of white imperialism makes Mao look like a rank amateur.


I'm generally leery of whitewashing the Soviets, just as I am of white-washing any other totalitarian or oppressive regime. I would give the Mark Millar Superman thing a pass because it focuses on the crimes of the Soviet government about as much as regular Superman comics focus on the crimes of the American government (that is, minimally, if at all). Also because it's more of  a thought-experiment that reflects on the cultural contingency of Superman's valorisation than an attempt to justify Soviet ideology.

Quote from: danbuter;429006It's right up there with people who think commisars in 40k are cool. Communists have killed more people than anyone else in the history of the world, but you're not allowed to say that, or the Left might get their panties in a bind.

You can say that as much as you like, and it will go toward  explaining why genuine communists are at the very fringe of the modern left while moderate social-democracy is at the centre.

On the right, meanwhile, the same brand of fearful, racist, homophobic, anti-science religious zealot who goes in for theocracy and white supremacism is still running the show.  Screaming "but...communism!" doesn't hide the fact that modern conservatism is no different to dark ages conservatism.

Quote from: John Morrow;429005How about "reimagining" the Soviet Union to be a kindler gentler place resembling what was found on propaganda posters, or at least downplaying the gulags and mass murder, like this (which was adapted as an RPG setting) or this, which one could also argue is offensive.

Haven't read them.  I'd have to see them in context.  They might be offensive, they might not (it would depend on what light the Russian communist angle and the related atrocities were presented in).

As far as Russia goes, I'm generally offended more by the frequent romanticization (not to mention canonization) of Nicholas II and the Romanovs, who frankly weren't all that much better that the Bolsheviks.

But as far as romaniticism of communism in general goes, the "Che Guevara = cool" thing is probably the one I find most objectionable (though moreso because of the strain I get from rolling my eyes over people who do it).

Why it is that people can't figure out two opposing factions can both be evil is beyond me.

Quote from: Hairfoot;429035You can say that as much as you like, and it will go toward  explaining why genuine communists are at the very fringe of the modern left while moderate social-democracy is at the centre.

On the right, meanwhile, the same brand of fearful, racist, homophobic, anti-science religious zealot who goes in for theocracy and white supremacism is still running the show.  Screaming "but...communism!" doesn't hide the fact that modern conservatism is no different to dark ages conservatism.

I mean, right, you've got the left who completely eschew those values, and has no outspoken violent elements at all which makes them totally awesome.  Meanwhile, the right is filled with rich white racists who can't stand so called 'mixed' racial types.  Good call.

(for the link-shy: I'm calling you a fucking idiot.  Because you are.)

Hey, Dungeondelver !

Very Good choices on your second link there.


- Ed C.

Quote from: The Butcher;428919I understand the distinction, but where is it exacly that Deadlands makes a claim to verisimilitude?

Just curious. For what it's worth, I found their handwaving away of the racist issue... ill-advised, to put it mildly, and well worth the panning it's getting in this thread, with or without claims to consistency.

The moment they made a chronology that wasn't meant to be seen as tongue-in-cheek, they basically made that claim.  But they get really bad about it in the sourcebooks, particularly the "back east" sourcebooks, that try very very hard to seem quite "credible" and serious, and fail at it spectacularly as I recall.

Part of the fault for all this could lie in that Deadlands is a product of its time.  Had it come out in, say, 2003, it would likely never have tried to be "credible and serious", it would have worn its gonzo colours with pride.  But having come out in the 90s, at the height of the "story-based" WW-style metaplot-and-pretentiousness days, it was bound to be infected by that way of thinking to believe that you couldn't really just be "mindless" fun or you were in some way inferior.

RPGPundit

And dudes, let's try to keep the focus in this particular thread on the Deadlands setting; which as far as I know has no communists in it.

If you want to criticize an RPG setting that romanticizes or revises the history of communism, find one and start a new thread about that.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;429172Part of the fault for all this could lie in that Deadlands is a product of its time.  Had it come out in, say, 2003, it would likely never have tried to be "credible and serious", it would have worn its gonzo colours with pride.  But having come out in the 90s, at the height of the "story-based" WW-style metaplot-and-pretentiousness days, it was bound to be infected by that way of thinking to believe that you couldn't really just be "mindless" fun or you were in some way inferior.

RPGPundit

My copy says Copyright 1996-1997 on the title page.

Quote from: RPGPundit;429172Part of the fault for all this could lie in that Deadlands is a product of its time.  Had it come out in, say, 2003, it would likely never have tried to be "credible and serious", it would have worn its gonzo colours with pride.  But having come out in the 90s, at the height of the "story-based" WW-style metaplot-and-pretentiousness days, it was bound to be infected by that way of thinking to believe that you couldn't really just be "mindless" fun or you were in some way inferior.

This sounds about right.

It's not too late for Pinnacle, though. I'm not terribly familiar with Deadlands Classic, but Reloaded looks like a step on that direction.

Quote from: Spike;429189My copy says Copyright 1996-1997 on the title page.

Isn't that what I said?

RPGPundit

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;429028Excepting capitalists, of course. The body count of white imperialism makes Mao look like a rank amateur.

And what, exactly, is that count?  How many deaths do you attribute to "white imperialism"?

(Ignoring, of course, the fact that "white imperialism" isn't a person but Mao was.)

Quote from: RPGPundit;429174And dudes, let's try to keep the focus in this particular thread on the Deadlands setting; which as far as I know has no communists in it.

You are claiming that whitewashing history in Deadlands is insulting.  While I think everyone agrees that whitewashing Nazis is mighty offensive, I think that whitewashing communists is a pretty good comparison for whitewashing the CSA.  Both get done by people with political motivations who find it easier to excuse atrocities, rationalize them away, or claim that the never happened than admit that the end game of their ideology might just end someplace really nasty and unpleasant.  The Nazis, however, were simply so evil that almost nobody makes excuses for them.  Instead, right and left try to pin them on the other side, even though they exhibited traits that both otherwise approve of (e.g., nationalism, central control).  

And my point was that if it's wrong to whitewash the CSA to get the cool trappings of the Confederacy and Lost Cause nobility for a role-playing game or work of alternate history fiction, then is it also wrong to whitewash communism to get the cool trappings of communist propaganda for a role-playing game or work of alternate fiction, or is that a question you'd rather sidestep?

Quote from: RPGPundit;429174If you want to criticize an RPG setting that romanticizes or revises the history of communism, find one and start a new thread about that.

I want to address the broader issue of when it's acceptable or unacceptable to whitewash history for a role-playing setting or, more broadly, a work of alternate history fiction.  And I also think it's relevant how and why people do their whitewashing in the real world as well as in their role-playing games and fiction, because that's how things like Lost Cause romanticism happen, which is relevant to your complaint.

To be perfectly honest with you, if you want to argue that racism is a special issue, I think I'm more insulted by the whitewashing of post-Civil War Jim Crow racism when it comes to pulps, the works of people like Robert E. Howard (who I would argue had some genuinely racist views), the Victorian era, the Prohibition era, and so on, which are all staples of role-playing games.  I'm not buying your "seriousness" argument because laziness, silliness, and whitewashing is probably more common than not.  And given that you've acknowledged at least a superficial similarity between your complain and Bruce Baugh's complaint about pulps, I'd like to know if there is more to your complaint than implausibility and cheesiness that made this particular example offend you while not having similar complaints about a host of similar examples.

This also goes back to the point I've made in the past that the humanoid monsters in role-playing games push many of the same buttons that racists push about various racial or ethnic groups because the goal is terthe same -- to depict a group as monstrous and threatening and worthy of violence or even annihilation.  Role-playing games casually and sometimes carelessly play with all sorts of things that people can and sometimes do find insulting.

So is the problem really whitewashing atrocities or racism or laziness or is something more going on here?