Quote from: Exploderwizard;414019Gamers have tricked themselves over the years into believing that professional designers know better than they do about what makes a game more enjoyable.

If you can't figure out for yourself what the fun of the experience is and how to create it then why play?

Spit when you say "professional game designer"; this "industry" needs to go back to being a "hobby".

Quote from: thedungeondelver;414095Spit when you say "professional game designer"; this "industry" needs to go back to being a "hobby".

I think you are right.

Where there is a hobby there will be an industry to support it, but to what extent should the "industry" drive the hobby?

Quote from: Orpheo;414283I think you are right.

Where there is a hobby there will be an industry to support it, but to what extent should the "industry" drive the hobby?

Which is where it went, naturally. I was reading the old Traveller Book 1 on the train to work today, and I was struck by how...EASY it was to get the rules for, say, combat. Which filled all of 3-4 pages (and that's with charts and such like).

Not gonna say the system is perfect; no system is. But it just seems so easier to grasp. I get the feeling that Marc Miller, at least then, had his finger on what it meant to be a GM or player trying to get to the fun stuff, and he laid it out there so you could get to it faster. IMO of course.

So, yeah...probably gonna buy some retro games (or retro clones as someone suggested). Not ragging on Mongoose Traveller (which I am running now; I've got no intention of changing it, at least until the campaign I have planned is done). But really, the stark, spartan way of the old Classic game really touches me in some way.

I don't think the problem is with "professional game designers" (after all, there's no question that Gygax et. al. quickly became "professional game designers"), but with Game Designer Primma Donnas. The guys who seriously think that the designer is a superstar, who is more important to your game than either the the players, or the GM, or both together, or sometimes even the rules themselves.

That's what I found hilarious about the Forge-Swine, they were talking all about defeating the "tyranny of the GM" with their innovations, but their innovations inevitably led to the Tyranny of the Game Designer, so that the person making important decisions for how your group roleplayed stopped being "Bob, who's GMed our group for years" and started being "Some guy none of us have ever met and have barely heard of but a bunch of degenerate would-be beatniks that hate D&D think he's awesome".

RPGPundit

i feel what you mean. i recently got a yen to run a star wars game, and i went and dug out my 1e west end games star wars stuff rather than my wotc saga star wars book. making a character in about five minutes (including the time it takes to print out a copy of a character sheet)? priceless.

Even if it really is just nostalgia ....... nothing wrong with that.

Quote from: Mythmere;414411Even if it really is just nostalgia ....... nothing wrong with that.

"What do I think?  I think it's a wax museum with a pulse."

I've said elsewhere what I think about "nostalgia" but there's Nostalgia and then there's nostalgia...

besides, Nostalgia can lead to some regular gaming-because-it-is-still-an-awesome-gameism.

Nostalgia, it's not what it used to be.

Quote from: Mythmere;414411Even if it really is just nostalgia ....... nothing wrong with that.

I should hope not. Not saying I shall eschew all "modern" games or whatever (been eyeing Wick's Houses of the Blooded for some time now) but there's a certain aestheic I would like to recapture. Maybe the old school clone games do it. Maybe there are modern games that get it right - as someone said, being able to make a character in 5-10 minutes is really, really awesome, and to be able t come away with plenty of roleplaying and mechanical crunch is pretty good too.

It's been a weird year for me because I've had to de-program myself from 3E in order to run and play S&W.

It was a bit discomforting the first few times to go through a descriptive back-and-forth rather than just rolling toward a target number, but it's so much more satisfying.

Quote from: Mencelus;414658I should hope not. Not saying I shall eschew all "modern" games or whatever (been eyeing Wick's Houses of the Blooded for some time now) but there's a certain aestheic I would like to recapture. Maybe the old school clone games do it. Maybe there are modern games that get it right - as someone said, being able to make a character in 5-10 minutes is really, really awesome, and to be able t come away with plenty of roleplaying and mechanical crunch is pretty good too.

I'm sure pages and pages could be written about this, but I'll just try to sum up my feelings about why I prefer some of the older iterations of D&D and other RPGs in a couple of sentences: It has nothing to do with kludgey subsystems or the goofy "you want to roll high here, but low here."  It has more to do with fewer choices and less mechanics.  Odd that: Fewer player build options and fewer mechanics to get in the way always seem to create more vivid opportunities for the game.  The players have less shit to get in the way of how they envision their characters. The DM has more time to build a cool world, random monster tables and interesting situations since he isn't spending three hours building "balanced" encounters.  Fights move faster and are more dynamic because your head is in the fight instead of on the numbers, feats and powers.  I think there are lessons to be learned from "modern" games as well, but there is more to the older games than just aesthetics.  In a lot of cases, they played a helluva lot differently.  

If I were you, I would listen to your instinct, read the various options at my disposal, and work up a system that was a good fit for me and my group (you do want them involved in this process, afterall).  No reason to scrap Traveller, since you say its going well.  You'll need time to plan stuff out for your next campaign.  

Quote from: winkingbishop;414704It has more to do with fewer choices and less mechanics.  Odd that: Fewer player build options and fewer mechanics to get in the way always seem to create more vivid opportunities for the game.  The players have less shit to get in the way of how they envision their characters.

I think this is what I'm trying to get at - what was that difference? I mean, there must have been something to it, those older designs, right?

Was looking over the old Classic Traveller on the train yesterday (as I already mentioned). I noticed the trading table, and I thought that its so...simple. Just that, simple. Easy to deal with. A single table, a couple notes on modifiers, and that's all.

I remember trying to use the Mongoose version in play once, about a year or so ago. It was confusing and weird, I remember. I was trying to do things fast of course, but I remember just being overwhelmed by checking all the stuff there. Don't know why - maybe I just brainfarted that day, but still.

I find that, at least for Classic Traveller, I really enjoyed the writing. Heck, the setting I'm using now for our Traveller game was inspired by a short bit in Book 0 of the Classic book, something about "Write a short campaign description, like..." and it gave a quick example. Holy hell! At that point, I was ready to use the "generic Imperium" but that little blurb got me thinking, why? Even Marc Miller never intended it, and gave some ideas about how you might (while keeping the base setting assumption about the way communication works between worlds). Very nice that bit.

QuoteIf I were you, I would listen to your instinct, read the various options at my disposal, and work up a system that was a good fit for me and my group (you do want them involved in this process, after all).  No reason to scrap Traveller, since you say its going well.  You'll need time to plan stuff out for your next campaign.  

Well, I'm having a think. There are a few things I wouldn't mind to buy along the path of what I'm talking about. I've a few ideas. Games I'd give a look at again after 10-15 years. A certain aesthetic I guess is what I want, and older games had it in spades.

Quote from: Mencelus;414757Was looking over the old Classic Traveller on the train yesterday (as I already mentioned). I noticed the trading table, and I thought that its so...simple. Just that, simple. Easy to deal with. A single table, a couple notes on modifiers, and that's all.

Until you get a Industrial Rich World next to a Non-industrial, Agricultural World you have a perpetuate money machine. Traveller mechanics are good but they are not perfect.

More complex character don't get in the way of roleplaying. For a particular player or referee that could be true. But complexity is a matter of taste. A clunky system gets in the way not matter if it is simple or complex. A well-designed system makes the game run smooth.

Quote from: estar;414840Until you get a Industrial Rich World next to a Non-industrial, Agricultural World you have a perpetuate money machine. Traveller mechanics are good but they are not perfect.

More complex character don't get in the way of roleplaying. For a particular player or referee that could be true. But complexity is a matter of taste. A clunky system gets in the way not matter if it is simple or complex. A well-designed system makes the game run smooth.

That's always gonna be the case eh? No matter what. Difference is, how much crunchiness went into finding that out? A lot or a little? If the answer is a little, then it sits all right in my book.

And anyway, I didn't say the older stuff I'm thinking about was impervious to abuse; that isn't my point. Not by a long shot.

Quote from: estar;414840More complex character don't get in the way of roleplaying. For a particular player or referee that could be true. But complexity is a matter of taste. A clunky system gets in the way not matter if it is simple or complex. A well-designed system makes the game run smooth.

Right.
My main games and setting are played in a frankly relatively math-heavy, skill based game (the chargen is the hardest part), but for the game we play, it instigates and enhances the RP.  
But that kind of thing does not for everyone.