Quote from: Omnifray;412552Useful thread. The majority of people even vaguely interested in buying non-mainstream games just seem to be relentless about wanting short rulebooks. Funny in a way cos the major commercial games AFAIAA all tend towards the very long or multiple supplements end of the spectrum.

...

IMHO if you stick to 128 pages you end up with something either very narrow or very bland. Well, I will see if I can stay under 200 pages (core) with my next one...

I'm a voice to the contrary here. I like long rulebooks. I've reading Burning Empires, the great brick itself, cover to cover three or four times now. I'm a fast reader though, and I try to never play a system without having at least read the rules once.

Quote from: Omnifray;412552Useful thread. The majority of people even vaguely interested in buying non-mainstream games just seem to be relentless about wanting short rulebooks. Funny in a way cos the major commercial games AFAIAA all tend towards the very long or multiple supplements end of the spectrum. It's frustrating because I would like to give people vast menus of materials to use but the people who are interested in playing non-mainstream stuff are simply not interested in even contemplating the amount of material required.

Why is this? Is it because the people who want non-mainstream games consume so many games that they cannot spare much time for any single one? Is it because people won't commit that amount of time to a game until it's taken wider hold? I can't believe that most of the people who insist on 128 page rulebooks would have turned their noses up at playing AD&D, D&D 3rd ed., WHFB 1st ed, Vampire, Mage, Exalted etc.

Hehe, I don't claim we are represent the majority of player, just a noisy minority of malcontents.

I'm not quite sure where you draw the line between mainsteream and non-mainstream. Among my favourites games to run are Star Wars D6, TSR's Gamma World  and Marvel Super Heroes, all of which are pretty compact systems and were pretty mainstream at the time. Sure they had tons of supplements and I might have even bought some of these extras, but to be honest I'm not sure I've ever got much use from these.

Currently I am running Icons (128 pages exactly!) and playing Savage Worlds. We can argue the Savage World  + setting book (in this case Slipstream) is a lot more than 128 pages, but it still feels pretty rules light and we don't all need to buy our own copies of the books.

But anyway my point is a simple, well written system like D6 or Savage World can provide you all you need to adjudicate a game without minimum fuss. If the mechanics turn out to be bland that's not a bad thing because it's the characters themselves and their choices should be interesting, not the method of acton resolution.

Quote from: Omnifray;412552Useful thread. The majority of people even vaguely interested in buying non-mainstream games just seem to be relentless about wanting short rulebooks. Funny in a way cos the major commercial games AFAIAA all tend towards the very long or multiple supplements end of the spectrum. It's frustrating because I would like to give people vast menus of materials to use but the people who are interested in playing non-mainstream stuff are simply not interested in even contemplating the amount of material required.

Why is this? Is it because the people who want non-mainstream games consume so many games that they cannot spare much time for any single one? Is it because people won't commit that amount of time to a game until it's taken wider hold? I can't believe that most of the people who insist on 128 page rulebooks would have turned their noses up at playing AD&D, D&D 3rd ed., WHFB 1st ed, Vampire, Mage, Exalted etc.

IMHO if you stick to 128 pages you end up with something either very narrow or very bland. Well, I will see if I can stay under 200 pages (core) with my next one...

For me it's simply a case of looking back and seeing firstly how games which were complete and enjoyable in play back when I first started gaming were almost universally shorter, and secondly thinking about what I've actually got use out of among the dozens/hundreds of RPG books in my collection (past and present).

I was having a look down the shelves just now, and out of the games I've got (or have ever owned) with a core book <200 pages, I've played at least one session of all but two of them. However, looking at the games with a larger core book, I've played maybe one in three of them.

Let me be clear as well here that I'm just talking about the core. If you want to include 600 pages of details about shoes in your game, that's fine by me, just put it in a supplement. I'll buy it if I care about shoes that much. But if you put it in the core book I'm unlikely to even look at your game for fear of what the hell you've put in that monstrous tome of a core.

A core book should be enabling people to know how to play your game, and quickly start doing so. If your game is set in fantasy Wisconsin by default, then you probably don't need to include details on all 50 US states in the core book, and you certainly don't need more about fantasy Australia than a passing mention it exists.

Oh, and the only games I've played in your list of big games are the two D&D versions, as it happens

Quote from: Soylent Green;412597Currently I am running Icons (128 pages exactly!) and playing Savage Worlds. We can argue the Savage World  + setting book (in this case Slipstream) is a lot more than 128 pages, but it still feels pretty rules light and we don't all need to buy our own copies of the books.

Don't forget that the Savage Worlds core book is printed on half-size pages, so arguably you can halve the page count on that.

I like SW setting books though because they include a campaign too within the page count.

Quote from: Soylent Green;412597I'm not quite sure where you draw the line between mainsteream and non-mainstream. Among my favourites games to run are Star Wars D6, TSR's Gamma World  and Marvel Super Heroes, all of which are pretty compact systems and were pretty mainstream at the time. Sure they had tons of supplements and I might have even bought some of these extras, but to be honest I'm not sure I've ever got much use from these.

I was thinking the same thing.

While I think that 128 pages might be a bit of the small side, there were certainly a metric ton of smaller book games produced throughout the 80s and 90s that used that size.  Only recently has the massive tomes o' hardbacks design craze dominated the industry.

Quote from: Bobloblah;412419Obviously that's just personal preference, but some of you railing against "she" might want to consider that that is all your dislike amounts to.

It laughably reeks of politically correct geeks begging to get laid.  Somehow if they put enough she-power in their RPGs then one magical day something slightly female will suck them off.

They is fine.  In a hobby 99% male, he/him/his is also fine.  

All the she-she-she hasn't expanded the hobby to women because the themes of RPGs don't generally appeal to women.  Like FPS games, football, etc.   Some women like them, but not many, let alone most.  WoD drew more women because goth-culture, vamp-lit is very female friendly.

Quote from: Grymbok;412602I was having a look down the shelves just now, and out of the games I've got (or have ever owned) with a core book <200 pages, I've played at least one session of all but two of them. However, looking at the games with a larger core book, I've played maybe one in three of them.

Let me be clear as well here that I'm just talking about the core. I ...

A core book should be enabling people to know how to play your game, and quickly start doing so. ...

That's very interesting.

I'm on page 132 of my current project at the moment, in 11 point font, including 18 pages set aside for art and blank character sheets of various descriptions. I've covered basic character generation (basic-level humans), basic equipment, combat, the core mechanics and fate, with a minimalist intro to the game.  Left to go:- stealth, social mechanics, a taster of magic, realms of existence, courage, sanity, health, advancement, a taster bestiary and some kind of general tips. A lot of bulk in what I've done so far is down to trying to walk people through CharGen in a way which makes it easy, so they can literally pick up the book, open it at chapter 1, work their way through chapter 1 and end that chapter with a fully written up character even if they had no idea of the system beforehand.

I might be able to squeeze what's left to do into 200 pages but I think I'd feel more comfortable with 256 pages. Is that a big sin?

Quote from: Spinachcat;412702In a hobby 99% male, ...

... the themes of RPGs don't generally appeal to women.  

... WoD drew more women because goth-culture, vamp-lit is very female friendly.

It's got very little to do with the goth culture and vamp-lit - it's far more to do with running your games with an emphasis on story, plot, interaction, roleplaying and drama, and not on competitive dice-grinding, my-stat-is-better-than-yours immature bullcrap or full-on smack-you-in-the-face boffer LARPing (the last of which I personally adore). I've played fantasy games with good female attendance and male-dominated vampire games; I've played vampire games with good female attendance and male-dominated fantasy games. Plenty of girls like Harry Potter. A friend of mine's girlfriend (aged 30ish) never roleplays but loves the Dragonlance books. Sure, a certain type of roleplaying game can build up a reputation for story, and then that has a knock-on effect, but you can fix it by running the right type of game.

IMHO the clincher for the WoD games is the prevalence of what I think of as semi-LARPing using dice or cards or scissors-paper-stone to resolve combat (not boffer combat). I've seen a student society run a fantasy boffer LARP with regular "interactives" where combat was scarcely in evidence and that draws a huge female crowd, maybe 30% or 40%, including some of the most persistent participants. LARP encourages social interaction and that draws girls. I've also been involved in plenty of tabletop fantasy games with two, even three females in attendance, in groups of maybe four to seven players. There's no mystique to it. As long as you don't go running full-on gridded dungeon-crawls with room after room of obscene beasties and expect the women to turn up in droves haggling for better rings of protection while the storyline, plot and character interaction whither away like some kind of embarrassing underwear which you daren't show in public.

I think overall, including LARP, the hobby is about 70% to 75% male. No way is it 95% male, let alone 99%, if you look beyond the narrow confines of hack and slash tabletopping.

Now, I too favor the use of the gender neutral "he" in role-playing games. To make that clear. But this:

Quote from: Spinachcat;412702In a hobby 99% male, (...) the themes of RPGs don't generally appeal to women.  (...)  WoD drew more women because goth-culture, vamp-lit is very female friendly.

I basically know for a fact that this is bullshit. I've had mostly women at my game table for the past five years. Not women taking steroids and doing push-ups, no: real women who like to talk shopping, like socializing, etc. I swear to God: I have NEVER seen players who loved to KICK ASS that much. They LOVED D&D because of it.



Oh yes sure: they liked the drama, the role playing going on with their characters' families and whatnot, but man, they loved the dungeon crawling too. They loved the exploration. They loved the fights. They rocked.

So no. I really think that this whole thing about "the themes of RPGs don't appeal to women" is just plain old bullshit. It's crap. It's just not the case.

If anything, maybe GAMERS are obnoxious to women showing any interest for their hobby. Maybe GAMERS just can't speak about RPGs without going on and on and on about inane details turning away any normal person who might show the slightest interest for it. Maybe GAMERS just can't stop looking at the girl's boobs when she's sitting across the table.

Whatever the case may be, I can assure you 100% that women can love D&D, or any standard thematic in RPGs. What they don't like is not being able to relax when they play, being on their guard because of that one creep that is just socially impaired. It's not a question of numbers really. All it takes is one creep, one asshole, one awkward guy who just doesn't know how to interact with double-X human beings.

My advice is to introduce women to RPGs with their friends, people they know and trust. You know: people they'd like to play games with. Then, you'll be very surprised indeed.

Quote from: Benoist;412761Now, I too favor the use of the gender neutral "he" in role-playing games. To make that clear. But this:


I basically know for a fact that this is bullshit. I've had mostly women at my game table for the past five years. Not women taking steroids and doing push-ups, no: real women who like to talk shopping, like socializing, etc. I swear to God: I have NEVER seen players who loved to KICK ASS that much. They LOVED D&D because of it.



Oh yes sure: they liked the drama, the role playing going on with their characters' families and whatnot, but man, they loved the dungeon crawling too. They loved the exploration. They loved the fights. They rocked.

So no. I really think that this whole thing about "the themes of RPGs don't appeal to women" is just plain old bullshit. It's crap. It's just not the case.

If anything, maybe GAMERS are obnoxious to women showing any interest for their hobby. Maybe GAMERS just can't speak about RPGs without going on and on and on about inane details turning away any normal person who might show the slightest interest for it. Maybe GAMERS just can't stop looking at the girl's boobs when she's sitting across the table.

Whatever the case may be, I can assure you 100% that women can love D&D, or any standard thematic in RPGs. What they don't like is not being able to relax when they play, being on their guard because of that one creep that is just socially impaired. It's not a question of numbers really. All it takes is one creep, one asshole, one awkward guy who just doesn't know how to interact with double-X human beings.

My advice is to introduce women to RPGs with their friends, people they know and trust. You know: people they'd like to play games with. Then, you'll be very surprised indeed.

Since my D&D game for 2 decades had at least as many women as men, I have to agree with you, Benoist - 100%.

-clash

Yes. If there's a problem its with the absurd idea that showing off PC-feminism or fundamentally changing the hobby is somehow what has to be done to attract women gamers. Or minority gamers, or whatever.  
The way to attract more gamers is just to focus on the fundamentals of gaming; recognizing, yes, that in part it may be the case that white men will be the ones most drawn to its themes, but that as long as you don't go out of your way to EXCLUDE other groups, there's nothing in particular that you "have" to change in order to get people from other groups involved.

RPGPundit

Many women that have been interested to play in my games first got hooked up via the "game" aspect of it. Many seem to like the miniatures. That gets them intrigued, and think that maybe this hobby is just a game after all, not some weird dress-up-in-the-basement kind of activity.

So they ask questions about the minis, or the dice. Wonder how they're used. I point out that people playing RPGs make up their own characters however they want them. That they can choose whatever their characters do. That the mini can look however they like. That gets the creative juices running.

After, it's all a question of talking about like, -really-, a normal, casual person talking about a hobby. If you get into a monologue that lasts more than a minute, then you know you're doing it wrong. Talk about the hobby casually, like in any conversation, and then you might see some interest. Don't push, don't try to "convince" or "convert".

It's all for fun. It's to have a good time amongst friends.
And that's about it really.

Yeah, I've pretty much always had an even split in my gaming group between men and women.

Where I live there's another GM who runs a female-only Earthdawn campaign. I first ran into her at the local convention in 2003. The GM said that her group got together for some great hack and slash/swashbuckling adventures with out having to deal with the usual 'guy-gamer bullshit they experience at a mixed table.' I nearly choked on my soda when she said that because it was just too funny.

Quote from: Omnifray;412758That's very interesting.

I'm on page 132 of my current project at the moment, in 11 point font, including 18 pages set aside for art and blank character sheets of various descriptions. I've covered basic character generation (basic-level humans), basic equipment, combat, the core mechanics and fate, with a minimalist intro to the game.  Left to go:- stealth, social mechanics, a taster of magic, realms of existence, courage, sanity, health, advancement, a taster bestiary and some kind of general tips. A lot of bulk in what I've done so far is down to trying to walk people through CharGen in a way which makes it easy, so they can literally pick up the book, open it at chapter 1, work their way through chapter 1 and end that chapter with a fully written up character even if they had no idea of the system beforehand.

I might be able to squeeze what's left to do into 200 pages but I think I'd feel more comfortable with 256 pages. Is that a big sin?

Who knows without looking at it - your game might be rules-heavy enough that in needs that level of detail (and so I likely wouldn't be a customer of yours anyway). My gut reaction from what you've written above is that if you need to spend a large chunk of that page count walking peolle through chargen, then you've made chargen too complex.

Quote from: Omnifray;412758*snip*
I might be able to squeeze what's left to do into 200 pages but I think I'd feel more comfortable with 256 pages. Is that a big sin?

Not if it sells...
I would hesitate to buy (new at least) a system that voluminous but there are plenty on the shelves so have a ball !

I concur with Grymboks post.