This is a bit of a complex question, or at least the answer could be.

A lot of people think Sorcerers kind of suck, but wizards are too good. Personally, I think the Sorcerer is pretty fair.

My beef with the game is that I think Vancian casting interrupts immersion too much.

What do you think of mixing the classes:

The character would have spell points that mimic the number of castings sorcerers get already. I'd probably use the 2e spells and magic numbers.

1st level - 4 points
2nd level - 6 points
3rd level - 10 points
4th level - 15 points

The character would get enough points to cast the number of spells a sorcerer normally could, though he could spend them in a different way.

This character could still keep a spell book, and every morning he could select the spells he can cast that day from the book.

Any spell that is in his book can be cast, but it costs double points and takes 10 minutes instead of one round. That way, the wizard can still dispel the door, even though he didn't pick it for the day. He just can't dispel effects as they happen.

Characters could awaken with their points intact. Changing spells you take time in meditation to prepare yourself. If you never changed spells known, you wouldn't need much of a morning ritual.

Keeping spells in your loaded list would grant a +1 spell penetration bonus, as an incentive for keeping them there.

What do you think?

I have no problems with vancian magic and immersion. It's magic.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;406896I have no problems with vancian magic and immersion. It's magic.

okay

I have to agree...it's *magic*. I rather want magic to not work just like things I'm familiar with. Vancian is strange and doesn't make any sense compared to stuff I'm familiar with in the real world...but I can accept that as magic.

If I have to plug my crystal ball into a wall before I can use it, that would kill the immersion. Similarly, if I cast "magic missile" by sticking small and specially prepared lead objects into a specially built device I put in my hand, a device activated by pulling a trigger...that seems just too familiar for me.

Now, if the magic's unbalancing as far as the game goes, that's a problem, and that's where your post becomes relevant; it really seems like a D&D spell point system has been tried quite a few times before, you should look around on the net, no need to reinvent the wheel, after all.

And that's one thing about 4e that turns some folks off. They 'balanced' magic by making all the 4e 'non magic' classes work the same as magical classes, either cheapening the magic or magicalizing the sword-swinging, depending on how you want to complain about it.

Well, I think my post is relevant because I think Vancian magic interrupts immersion. I also think that making classes is fun. So if it wasn't clear from my first post, I'm mostly looking for help from people who agree with those two things.

Man of Magic
The Man of Magic is a hybrid of the Sorcerer and Wizard classes. In terms of attack bonus, saving throws, hit dice, and weapon / armor proficiency, the man of magic is the same as a Wizard. Skills can be as either a Wizard or a Sorcerer.

Attributes
Men of Magic can choose to make either their Charisma or their Intelligence their primary attribute. If they choose Charisma, they must select a bloodline as a Sorcerer. If they choose Intelligence, they can specialize as a Wizard.

Spells per Day
A Man of Magic gains a number of spell points per day based on his level. These points are expended whenever a spell is cast. Spells have a casting cost based on their level. The maximum spell level a sorcerer can cast is based on his level and found on the chart below.

Class Level      Spell Points      Maximum Spell Level
1         12         1
2         16         1
3         20         1
4         36         2
5         40         2
6         64         3
7         74         3   
8         109         4

Spells Points and High Attributes
A Man of Magic gains a number of bonus spell points based on his level for having a high primary casting attribute. A character with a high attribute gains all of the bonuses of the lower attributes.

Attribute      Bonus
12-13         4 at 1st level
14-15         6 at 4th level
16-17         10 at 6th level
18-19         15 at 8th level
20-21         4 at 1st level

Readying Spells
Men of Magic can cast any spell that they have prepared by expending spell points. They can prepare a number of spells each day according to the Sorcerer's "Spells Known" chart. A spell can be traded for two spells of the next lower level. Spell points can be spent on any spell the Man of Magic has prepared for the day.

Men of Magic keep a spell book and can prepare any spell found in that book. Preparing spells requires a half hour long meditation, usually performed in the morning, during which his mind is prepared. This meditation creates incredible focus for the Man of Magic's psychic energy, giving him the ability to cast spells.

Effects on the Mind
Preparing magic has a profound effect on the mind of the caster. His most powerful spells weigh heavily on his consciousness and haunt him through the day. A Man of Magic that has prepared spells of the highest spell level he is capable of is affected based on the spell's school. If the caster has more than one spell prepared, and no school is favored more than the others, the player may select the effect.

Abjuration      Calmness, Courage, and Focus – Add +2 Willpower Saving Throws
Conjuration      Vitality – Surging Energy gives you a +2 on all Fortitude Saving Throws
Divination      Clarity of Thought – Add +3 on all Perception skill checks
Enchantment      Confidence and Magnetism – Add +3 on all Diplomacy skill checks
Evocation      Determination and Ferociousness – Add +3 on all Intimidation skill checks
Illusion         Creativity and Wit – Add +2 to all Reflex Saving Throws
Necromancy      Grim Determination – Add +2 to all Concentration rolls
Transmutation      Sense of Control and Superiority – Add +3 to all Bluff skill checks

Spell Books
A Man of Magic starts with all zero level spells and six first level spells of choice. At each additional level of experience, he may automatically select one additional spell of the highest spell level he can normally cast. If Intelligence is his primary casting attribute, he gains an additional spell. If he is a specialist, gain one more on top of that.

Blood Line Spells
If the Man of Magic has bloodline spells, he is considered to always have them prepared. He can write them down for the benefit of others, but he can't trade them out.

Additional Feats
Men of Magic gain the feat, "Scribe Scroll," and an additional Metamagic Feat at every 5th level.

blah, I need to learn how to format this kind of stuff.

Quote from: Cranewings;406895This is a bit of a complex question, or at least the answer could be.

Perhaps, but that's okay. Here's what came to mind for me - maybe kind of complex!

I think that this character is probably as good or better than the Wizard in many ways. He does have the limitation to the Sorcerer's overall maximum spell output, but is actually better off in terms of flexibility than either classes's high points. Spellcasting classes already tend to have quite an edge over fighting classes in the more "low magic" kind of campaigns you seem to be aiming for from some of your other posts, so I do recommend some caution in broadening sorcerers' power for flavor reasons if you're very concerned about character balance (a recurring theme in 3rd/4th edition games, but since you seem to be working in a low-ish level range, it's not as problematic.

A couple of things worth considering that I would argue to be huge advantages:

Quote from: Cranewings;406895The character would get enough points to cast the number of spells a sorcerer normally could, though he could spend them in a different way.

 While due to spell level legacies from older editions there are a couple of unusually powerful lower-level spells, in general the higher level spells are the ones the caster wants to be using when faced with a serious challenge.

Consider the straightforward example of combat. All things being even, I think most would agree that for "20 points" it is entirely preferable to be able to cast, say, "Fireball" two times (10+10) rather than "Fireball," "Flame Arrow", and "Magic Missile." Not only is damage output overall better, but it's concentrated into two rounds rather than spread over three - better chance of eliminating the opposition a round earlier. The only gamble there is 'overkill' in points spent, but you still have the OPTION to cast the lesser spells.

This is only exaggerated if the victory allows the sorcerer safe conditions to rest again.

My recommendation : Keep the existing sorcerer version of the spell slots : they still have a lot of flexibility, especially since they can use higher level slots to cast lower level spells. (potentially metamagic-enhanced, circumventing any "level waste")

I don't know how hard it is given your campaign world to justify the discrete levels of spells in terms of immersion - I have traditionally viewed "levels" of spells as something characters recognize in the game world; A more "setting neutral" explanation might be to think that in some way a 3rd level spell uses arithmetically more "mana" but causes exponentially more mental stress to cast? If you were in a more exotic mood, you might say that when you learn a new spell level you learn how to tap a new power source that is more refined - i.e. you can only cast 1st level spells with "Earth Magic," but when you
learn 2nd level spells, you can tap "Moon" magic which can power 1st level spells too, but also the more rarified 2nd level spells, then "Mars" magic is good for "up to" 3rd level spells, and so on. It's just one of a million possible examples,and entirely cosmetic, but i'm just shooting for something that lets the rules represent something in the game world.*

Quote from: Cranewings;406895Any spell that is in his book can be cast, but it costs double points and takes 10 minutes instead of one round. That way, the wizard can still dispel the door, even though he didn't pick it for the day. He just can't dispel effects as they happen.

It will be a repercussion of this change that sorcerer PCs will be generally able to memorize all their best combat and "always useful" (fly, enhancing spells, etc) and will generally be able to take advantage of "specialty" spells at a whim, being "never unprepared." Even spending more points, sorcerers will gain more efficiency - they can have a versatile range of combat spells, and have a low risk from declining to memorize utility spells. Consider this - the party is in a dungeon and scouting or scrying reveals spectres in a nearby chamber. The sorcerer has memorized the almost always useful Stoneskin, but can "trade" in Ghost Touch in 10 minutes. Yes, the spell point cost is increased, but it's only an "increased" cost compared to the idea of casting it entirely free - compare "10 minutes and 5 extra spell points ((GT : 10x2) vs SS :15)" to "One Day and however many spell points were used or wasted getting to the chance to rememorize."

It is an intriguing idea; In my opinion, it might be better modeled as an "Improvise Spell" metamagic feat that adds levels to the spell cast (I would recommend 3), which would limit the ability to using spells in the lower portion of the caster's range. Also spells that take longer than 1 action to cast probably should take longer to improvise than the base 10 min.

Quote from: Cranewings;406895Keeping spells in your loaded list would grant a +1 spell penetration bonus, as an incentive for keeping them there.

By the way, why do you want there to be an incentive for the character keeping the same spells on a regular basis? In my experience casters tend to memorize at least similar spells most of the time anyway, so this would be close to a free feat for most players I know. Has a problem or abuse risen at your table in having different spells day-to-day?

Anyway, hope some of this is interesting to you. Good luck with your experiment.

* I like "Vancian" magic just fine myself, but I have no doubt that Gygax similarly adopted dying earth's "Memorization" mostly as a way to make sense of a way of allocating spells that is convenient for the game. If you haven't read any of Vance's Dying Earth books, you ought to. The approach to magic is weird enough that I doubt it would change your mind on the immersive qualities of standard D&D magic, but they are extremely good reading. "Rhiallto the Marvelous" is a bizarre and hilarious exploration on how powerful wizards think and act (in two words, "they're dicks," but very entertainingly so.) "Eyes of the Overworld" is in my opinion the place to start, but as it relates the adventures of a coarse-minded vagabond, it does not get too much into the mechanics of sorcery.

I'll write a longer post tomorrow, but thanks. I thought about a lot of that when I wrote it and actually busted down the total number of points, but it can still cast too many high level spells...

Oh well, hopefully I'll get inspired tonight.