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What the heck was that?

I was starting to write a reply using an image but ran out of time to make sure it was all kosher before getting interrupted at work.  I chose to delete the entry rather than leave a half-post and look like some sort of threadcrapper.  I tried to do it fast but I guess it wasn't fast enough, sorry.

What I was going to get at was...

QuoteIn my opinion it was a mistake to allow the players to track character development after the characters were created and once gameplay ensues.

I disagree.  Why do you choose D&D for this game in place of other systems?

Quote from: winkingbishop;396290What I was going to get at was...

QuoteIn my opinion it was a mistake to allow the players to track character development after the characters were created and once gameplay ensues.

I disagree.  Why do you choose D&D for this game in place of other systems?

When I first started playing D&D, the first few DMs did things exactly in this manner.  (They were very dictatorial). They were somewhat older than me and came from a wargaming background.

Quote from: winkingbishop;396290I disagree.  Why do you choose D&D for this game in place of other systems?

1. The unrivaled amount of resources for play.
2. Knowledge of the basic mechanics. Easy to run.
3. D&D is not exclusive here, I still use/run Spycraft, Fudge, C&C, Traveller, GAmma World/Metamorphosis Alpha, GURPS, and Runequest. I'll probably run a game or two of Aces & Eights before the year is out.

GGroy is also missing the point. This is not about the GM, it's about the players, and how they play.

The players should have goals. Definitely. And goals for their characters as well. That goal shouldn't be to get exactly 1,221 xp just so they can get the next shiny trinket / uber-damage spell.

It should be that their character follows a trail of experiences, education, and enlightenment that allows them to improve in relation to other characters. The players should have a rough idea of their approximate strengths, yes. They should have some ideas of specific actions they can take to improve their character as well.

For example, When one gets into a real fight, it's often unclear if that person is going to emerge victorious. After a couple rounds of fighting, only then, does it become clear who has the real advantage. When you really run a risk of losing something, it suddenly becomes much more valuable. Uncertainty adds to this.

The idea is to foster immersion in the story being acted. Plus, the GM should be doing the work to make the mechanics transparent, so the players are left with only the visceral experiences that occur during play.

How would you propose to do that BtB with the existing mechanics?

Quote from: One Horse Town;396250Don't speak to me like i'm a retard, Frank. I've done it...and abandoned it.

Writing that amount of words is one thing. Making it interesting, usable, making up rules etc is entirely another matter.

Look, if you decided to keep the words flowing by making and releasing unfinished (and let's be honest here: unfnishable) crap like Iron Heroes or Mearls' dozen untested, non-functional Skill Challenge overhauls, you could keep writing at whatever your words per hour rate was for however long you could keep yourself in front of the computer.

Writing rules and prose only slows own when you self censor it to force it to make sense or hold together. Mearls doesn't do that, he just goes forward. Every time he comes to an infinite loop or a non-interactivity stop bug... he just wraps up the piece and releases it. Works on something else. Says he'll fix the problems in the next release. Starts a new piece from scratch and writes at full speed until that breaks too - and maybe not even in the same place.

The thing is, as long as Mearls keeps his output high, his stated objectives high minded, and his grammar clear, corporate is never going to figure out that none of his mechanics work. Most of the fanbase is, sorry to say, simply not critical enough to figure out that the reason Iron Heroes has such severe problems is that no one bothered to take the time to design a system that had less or less severe problems. That the entire book was written stream on conscious and that you would do no worse by having a random DM make up house rules off the top of his head as needed as the game went on.

Making a functional set of skill challenge rules isn't particularly hard. The math can be done in an afternoon with a solar powered calculator, and once you identify the direction the incentives are supposed to go (namely: towards active participation by all players at the table), the basic setup (to track hits and not misses, and cap the rounds not the individual actions) is obvious. But Mearls isn't interested in making something functional or in slowing his output so that he can finish something. He is interested in writing something today. Tomorrow he will be interested in writing something tomorrow.

If I was especially mean, I would suggest that the reason Mike Mearls makes such flawed Skill Challenge overhauls is to leave himself something he will "have to" (and thus get to) write in two months when the word gets back that Skill Challenges still aren't solved. But I don't even believe that. I simply think that he is unwilling to spend four hours thinking about D&D and doing math without writing stuff for money.

-Frank

I read the first page yesterday, but I haven't kept up with the whole thread.

I agree with a bunch of the ideas so far: have a base product that is widely distributed; bring old stuff back in print (I don't think it will affect current edition sales), etc.

But my biggest change would be to improve the licensing.  Make that staff larger and make the process more open and let those people be more public.  Think about it: The next big thing in gaming probably isn't going to come from Wizards itself.  When Magic the card game came out, what if old WotC could have grabbed a D&D license for it for $.10/pack.  If it takes off old TSR makes a boatload and old WotC would have wanted the license to be more sure of sales.  Likewise, when Wizkids was starting Mage Knight wouldn't they have liked to license the D&D name for a similar fee.

Further, don't be as exclusive with the D&D video game licensing.  If you can't go general non-exclusive, then give the rights to Dark Sun to one company, Dragonlance to another, Forgotten Realms to another, etc.  And/or break the license up by medium: RTS vs Strategy vs. turn bases vs. casual (Facebook) games.

Quote from: SowelBlack;396297I read the first page yesterday, but I haven't kept up with the whole thread.

I agree with a bunch of the ideas so far: have a base product that is widely distributed; bring old stuff back in print (I don't think it will affect current edition sales), etc.

But my biggest change would be to improve the licensing.  Make that staff larger and make the process more open and let those people be more public.  Think about it: The next big thing in gaming probably isn't going to come from Wizards itself.  When Magic the card game came out, what if old WotC could have grabbed a D&D license for it for $.10/pack.  If it takes off old TSR makes a boatload and old WotC would have wanted the license to be more sure of sales.  Likewise, when Wizkids was starting Mage Knight wouldn't they have liked to license the D&D name for a similar fee.

Further, don't be as exclusive with the D&D video game licensing.  If you can't go general non-exclusive, then give the rights to Dark Sun to one company, Dragonlance to another, Forgotten Realms to another, etc.  And/or break the license up by medium: RTS vs Strategy vs. turn bases vs. casual (Facebook) games.

The middle of the thread did get tied up with a chuck of off-topic stuff like whehter or not Mearls can write 20K words a day or not so you didn't miss that much

I see what you mean. the D&D brand is the really strong thing you have. It's bigger than the mechanics and the base game population. Rather like Marvel (and latterly Disney) realised that there was a lot more cash in Superhero films than in superhero comics, but those films had to be true to the spirit of the comics and of a certain quality because crap low budget made for TV movies do no one any favours.

So a Magic expansion with Bigby, Tenser, and the rest or a MtG expansion for Dragonlance etc etc ... Of course if WotC had done that they woudln't have been able to buy the whole of TSR for 5 magic beans and a promise they could have a go on the WotC moped after work but I get what you mean.

Quote from: jibbajibba;396300I see what you mean. the D&D brand is the really strong thing you have. It's bigger than the mechanics and the base game population. Rather like Marvel (and latterly Disney) realised that there was a lot more cash in Superhero films than in superhero comics, but those films had to be true to the spirit of the comics and of a certain quality because crap low budget made for TV movies do no one any favours.

Hey, wait a sec... So, maybe you're making money now.  But doesn't that still leave you with only a half-baked roleplaying game publication scheme?  Sell outs.  

Quote from: winkingbishop;396301Hey, wait a sec... So, maybe you're making money now.  But doesn't that still leave you with only a half-baked roleplaying game publication scheme?  Sell outs.  

I think you're half-joking, but I'll follow up on it straight.

If old TSR/WotC had done this with 3.0/3.5, there would be no open game license.  But the idea would be to allow for nearly that openness.  Old TSR/WotC woudl just take a small cut.  Yeah, everyone else combined maybe (for the sake of argument) just barely equals what they made off of 3.0/3.5, but this would give WotC some earnings out of all that other product.  Wouldn't they love $1 of every hardcover sale and $.50 of every softcover sale (again, prices for the sake of argument) that Paizo, Green Ronin, Mongoose, et al made.  

With the OGL the license may not be worth as much now, but it might be worth something to get the "D&D" Logo on print/pdf RPG products and be able to do more than just the GSL allows for the little guys who could be the next Paizo, Green Ronin, Mongoose, etc.

And maybe if/when someone else makes the perfect hybrid RPG-with something-else-product (whether it is better online play, RPG software tools, a new computer RPG approach, RPG with cards, RPG with minis, etc.), if WotC is actively licensing then they're in that game with minimal exposure.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;396294Look, if you decided to keep the words flowing by making and releasing unfinished (and let's be honest here: unfnishable) crap like Iron Heroes or Mearls' dozen untested, non-functional Skill Challenge overhauls, you could keep writing at whatever your words per hour rate was for however long you could keep yourself in front of the computer.

Writing rules and prose only slows own when you self censor it to force it to make sense or hold together. Mearls doesn't do that, he just goes forward. Every time he comes to an infinite loop or a non-interactivity stop bug... he just wraps up the piece and releases it. Works on something else. Says he'll fix the problems in the next release. Starts a new piece from scratch and writes at full speed until that breaks too - and maybe not even in the same place.

The thing is, as long as Mearls keeps his output high, his stated objectives high minded, and his grammar clear, corporate is never going to figure out that none of his mechanics work. Most of the fanbase is, sorry to say, simply not critical enough to figure out that the reason Iron Heroes has such severe problems is that no one bothered to take the time to design a system that had less or less severe problems. That the entire book was written stream on conscious and that you would do no worse by having a random DM make up house rules off the top of his head as needed as the game went on.

Making a functional set of skill challenge rules isn't particularly hard. The math can be done in an afternoon with a solar powered calculator, and once you identify the direction the incentives are supposed to go (namely: towards active participation by all players at the table), the basic setup (to track hits and not misses, and cap the rounds not the individual actions) is obvious. But Mearls isn't interested in making something functional or in slowing his output so that he can finish something. He is interested in writing something today. Tomorrow he will be interested in writing something tomorrow.

If I was especially mean, I would suggest that the reason Mike Mearls makes such flawed Skill Challenge overhauls is to leave himself something he will "have to" (and thus get to) write in two months when the word gets back that Skill Challenges still aren't solved. But I don't even believe that. I simply think that he is unwilling to spend four hours thinking about D&D and doing math without writing stuff for money.

-Frank

You could have saved a lot of both of our time if you'd replied to my original "i'm amazed" comment with this, "Well, yeah, Mearls is a hack." Which is what the above is a long-winded way of saying.

I must admit that you're a strange beast to converse with. It's like talking to a Mexican jumping bean.

FT: This is A because of B
OHT: Bollocks, prove A is because of B
FT: Because of C.
OHT: Huh?
FT: Z, Q, B and J are all relevant if you're as clever as me.
OHT: You're a C alright.
FT: Yeah, but A is because of P
OHT: But you said...oh, never mind.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;396256This might be comforting to you, but that's not actually how it works.

D&D provides a game experience that other RPGS don't- other RPGs are usually much more about their setting or theme, (or "story") and very rarely about characters getting into battles and accumulating treasure and character building via levelling up. When people sit down to play D&D there is an expectation that there will be adventure, exploration, battles, and treasure. Characters will level up and buy things, and go back to the dungeon again and again. You just don't get that with Gurps or Hero or almost anything else in quite the same way. They can even be fantasy versions of the exact same D&D setting and the D&D setting will win every time because it's not the setting or the story or even the rules that matter, it's what happens during the game.

So Star Wars isn't about adventure?  Traveller?  The D&D retroclones like Castles & Crusades?  Tunnels & Trolls isn't basically D&D with the shit pulled out of it?

Its not that dude.  I know you have the brand shoved permanently up your ass and all (Its why most people here hate you after all!) but you damned well know that's not it.

When people who played D20 D&D wouldn't play D20 Star Wars which is the EXACT.  SAME.  GAME.  BUT.  WITH.  WOOKIES.  you know something is up.  When they whine about Castles & Crusades which is D20 D&D with LESS RULES, being closer to what most sane people wanted AD&D to be anyhow, something is up.

QuoteIn effect, D&D appeals to a niche audience that just happens to represent the overwhelming majority of the hobby.

Because people like you, who only want a brand name keep pushing the rest of us out till the point we raise our hands and say "FUCK IT" and go play hobby games that aren't as completely controlled by one brand name that changes rulesets every 5 years or so in the quest for MORE MONEY.

QuoteI hear you've spent much of the last year without any game whatsoever. Do you suppose your hostility towards people and resentment of their enjoyment could account for that?

Considering I have actually HELPED people find D&D games even though I fucking hate 4e and its playerbase (at least ones like yourself) with a passion, maybe (as always) you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

I know why I haven't gotten in an active RPG campaign for quite some time.

Hell, I will list the reasons!

1: Refusal to play D&D 4.  
2: Southeastern CT gamers are the most unwelcoming, unfriendly, un networking sacks of shit I have ever met.  If you don't play what they play when they play and all but PUSH yourself out there you WILL NOT find a game group.  People in my region don't use player finders, don't try to network, and are just generally miserable unfriendly fucks.  Its so bad I have had more games of Battletech since 1988 with normal people than I have with Battletech players.  (Battletech players are horrible like that worldwide.  SECT is full of people with the Battletech player asocial mindset.)
3: Friends are flaky as shit when it comes to scheduling.  One friend cancels more than he shows up.  He is doing this to two groups simultaneously.
4: I work weekends and sleep days.  If I am up and ready to go at 4PM it is a major achievement.  Most games seem to be run around noontime on weekends outside of D&D Encounters shit.  Yeah.  I get out of work some days around 6AM with a 30-40 minute drive home.  That aint happening.  

I dropped out of a Changeling LARP because Number 4 overwhelmed what little fun I was getting in the game.  (White Wolf games seem to be about playing douchebags doing political shit. BOOOORING.)  If it had been say, a weekday afternoon I probably would have kept playing.

See that's the thing.  You D&D brandwhores seem to think if you force everyone to play D&D its gonna work.

No.  It just causes some of us to go find something else to do with our time instead of playing a game that has almost NEVER been the best RPG and not even the best RPG of its subgenre with a bunch of retards happy to play both kinds of games.  Dungeons AND Dragons.

Is there any wonder the RPG market keeps shrinking?

Why should I accept a game I don't like when everyone else won't even TRY a different game? I've made the mistakes of joining D&D groups in the hope of maybe getting them to play something else later.  It never works.

The wargames and boardgame crowd are far more likely to try new things outside of the odd Games Workshop zombie.  And with every price increase and shitty unplaytested ruleschange they become a smaller and smaller group.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;396338So Star Wars isn't about adventure?  Traveller?  The D&D retroclones like Castles & Crusades?  Tunnels & Trolls isn't basically D&D with the shit pulled out of it?

Its not that dude.  I know you have the brand shoved permanently up your ass and all (Its why most people here hate you after all!) but you damned well know that's not it.

When people who played D20 D&D wouldn't play D20 Star Wars which is the EXACT.  SAME.  GAME.  BUT.  WITH.  WOOKIES.  you know something is up.  When they whine about Castles & Crusades which is D20 D&D with LESS RULES, being closer to what most sane people wanted AD&D to be anyhow, something is up.



Because people like you, who only want a brand name keep pushing the rest of us out till the point we raise our hands and say "FUCK IT" and go play hobby games that aren't as completely controlled by one brand name that changes rulesets every 5 years or so in the quest for MORE MONEY.



Considering I have actually HELPED people find D&D games even though I fucking hate 4e and its playerbase (at least ones like yourself) with a passion, maybe (as always) you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

I know why I haven't gotten in an active RPG campaign for quite some time.

Hell, I will list the reasons!

1: Refusal to play D&D 4.  
2: Southeastern CT gamers are the most unwelcoming, unfriendly, un networking sacks of shit I have ever met.  If you don't play what they play when they play and all but PUSH yourself out there you WILL NOT find a game group.  People in my region don't use player finders, don't try to network, and are just generally miserable unfriendly fucks.  Its so bad I have had more games of Battletech since 1988 with normal people than I have with Battletech players.  (Battletech players are horrible like that worldwide.  SECT is full of people with the Battletech player asocial mindset.)
3: Friends are flaky as shit when it comes to scheduling.  One friend cancels more than he shows up.  He is doing this to two groups simultaneously.
4: I work weekends and sleep days.  If I am up and ready to go at 4PM it is a major achievement.  Most games seem to be run around noontime on weekends outside of D&D Encounters shit.  Yeah.  I get out of work some days around 6AM with a 30-40 minute drive home.  That aint happening.  

I dropped out of a Changeling LARP because Number 4 overwhelmed what little fun I was getting in the game.  (White Wolf games seem to be about playing douchebags doing political shit. BOOOORING.)  If it had been say, a weekday afternoon I probably would have kept playing.

See that's the thing.  You D&D brandwhores seem to think if you force everyone to play D&D its gonna work.

No.  It just causes some of us to go find something else to do with our time instead of playing a game that has almost NEVER been the best RPG and not even the best RPG of its subgenre with a bunch of retards happy to play both kinds of games.  Dungeons AND Dragons.

Is there any wonder the RPG market keeps shrinking?

Why should I accept a game I don't like when everyone else won't even TRY a different game? I've made the mistakes of joining D&D groups in the hope of maybe getting them to play something else later.  It never works.

The wargames and boardgame crowd are far more likely to try new things outside of the odd Games Workshop zombie.  And with every price increase and shitty unplaytested ruleschange they become a smaller and smaller group.

Wow. You really do not like D&D

Quote from: Captain Rufus;396338So Star Wars isn't about adventure?  Traveller?  The D&D retroclones like Castles & Crusades?  Tunnels & Trolls isn't basically D&D with the shit pulled out of it?

The last two are close, but the first two are different.  With Star Wars, the experience might be recreating ther movies, or it might be about exploring a part of the setting, or anything else. It isn't the rules D20 or not, it's what happens during the game. It isn't like you would normally play Star Wars by going to an encounter filled area, hacking up jawas and colecting credits. Star Wars really needs there to be a story.

And Traveller might be about going on an adventure, or it might be (at it's best, as far as I'm concerned) about the trade game. There are even a few Traveller Dungeon crawls, but the expectations are so varied that players need a lot more information to really become proactive.
 

Quote from: RufusIts not that dude.  I know you have the brand shoved permanently up your ass and all (Its why most people here hate you after all!) but you damned well know that's not it.

I'm kinda of proud of my enemies. They are invariably detestable human beings and as long as these people continue to self-select as my enemies I know I'm doing something right. And anyway, it's probably not so much me they hate; they don't even know me. I suspect that if they really do hate something, it's the idea I represent.

QuoteBecause people like you, who only want a brand name keep pushing the rest of us out till the point we raise our hands and say "FUCK IT" and go play hobby games that aren't as completely controlled by one brand name that changes rulesets every 5 years or so in the quest for MORE MONEY.



Considering I have actually HELPED people find D&D games even though I fucking hate 4e and its playerbase (at least ones like yourself) with a passion, maybe (as always) you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

I know why I haven't gotten in an active RPG campaign for quite some time.

Hell, I will list the reasons!

Hilarious.

You seem very unhappy with yourself.

D&D is focused, yes, but couldn't you say the same about something like CoC?  My players have never touched BRP (let alone anything outside of d20 or White-Wolf), but they knew exactly what the game entailed and what to expect.  Focus is important, but AFAIK, D&D isn't the only long-standing RPG that does it.

Now the legacy and geek/pop-culture references certainly help purely in terms of recruiting people, but I don't think that speaks to the quality of the game.  I think it more or less makes D&D a "comfort food" for gamers.

Quote from: Peregrin;396346D&D is focused, yes, but couldn't you say the same about something like CoC?  My players have never touched BRP (let alone anything outside of d20 or White-Wolf), but they knew exactly what the game entailed and what to expect.  Focus is important, but AFAIK, D&D isn't the only long-standing RPG that does it.

Now the legacy and geek/pop-culture references certainly help purely in terms of recruiting people, but I don't think that speaks to the quality of the game.  I think it more or less makes D&D a "comfort food" for gamers.

I'm probably the worst CoC player in history because I always want my character to die in a cool Mythos-related way. So I'll always be "doubting the Mythos" loudly, or reassuring everyone there's nothing to be afraid of. I'll volunteer to check out the basement alone, or lean casually against the demonic altar saying "see, I told you there was nothing to worry about down here.." or pick up the insane book and page through it non-chalantly. We used to do a yearly game at Halloween.

Then again, I think Beyond The Supernatural is a better game for horror.