Quote from: Abyssal Maw;3876423rd thing, in the skill challenge version, you don't have to ask for rolls either. You can still make everything conditional upon what players say (or any other condition) so long as the tasks are identifiable. If you create a fortress with wandering patrols, you might say each patrol represents a task and the PCs have to either kill, divert, or disperse 3 or 4 or 8 of the patrols before the villains do a certain thing. Or you might say they have to gather 6 ingredients to give to the NPC alchemist, or talk 4 criminals before the NPC crimeboss will give them an audience.. or any combination of anything else..without it even coming to skill checks.

Just ringing the bell again on this point, because it's very interesting to me. I'd like AM, or anyone knowing what AM's talking about, to tell me where I can find this in 4e, that is, specific rules, guidelines, that explain how you might substitute any task or specific actions instead of skill rolls in a skill challenge.

Quid?

Quote from: Benoist;387731Just ringing the bell again on this point, because it's very interesting to me. I'd like AM, or anyone knowing what AM's talking about, to tell me where I can find this in 4e, that is, specific rules, guidelines, that explain how you might substitute any task or specific actions instead of skill rolls in a skill challenge.

Quid?

Well, I'm at work right now so I don't have the books or anything, but the real answer is "why couldn't you?"

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;387733Well, I'm at work right now so I don't have the books or anything, but the real answer is "why couldn't you?"

That's not what I'm asking though. Any Great GM can do anything with any game.

That's not what I'm asking. My question is whether the game indicates this black on white, on the written page.

Quote from: Benoist;387734That's not what I'm asking though. Any Great GM can do anything with any game.

That's not what I'm asking. My question is whether the game indicates this black on white, on the written page.

Anytime they say "six success before 3 failures", you have a lot of leeway in determining what a success is. Examples in a lot of the published materials include things that automatically earn a success, or even conditions that automatically earn a success (or a failure). So for example, if the characters have applied the ointment from Nalashtis Naturals in ADCP1-1, they don't have to roll an endurance check against the stinging insects in the swamp during the hunt skill challenge.

Handling skill checks by dice rolls is itself also optional. If a player makes an impassioned speech, the Dm never has to then force a diplomacy check (in fact the written advice is not to). When characters eat their rations, we don't roll for how many bites hit the characters mouth.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;387737Anytime they say "six success before 3 failures", you have a lot of leeway in determining what a success is. Examples in a lot of the published materials include things that automatically earn a success, or even conditions that automatically earn a success (or a failure). So for example, if the characters have applied the ointment from Nalashtis Naturals in ADCP1-1, they don't have to roll an endurance check against the stinging insects in the swamp during the hunt skill challenge.

Handling skill checks by dice rolls is itself also optional. If a player makes an impassioned speech, the Dm never has to then force a diplomacy check (in fact the written advice is not to). When characters eat their rations, we don't roll for how many bites hit the characters mouth.

When you get back from work, I would appreciate if could you provide me with some examples from the rules, or some published modules, anything that supports that interpretation. No rush.

I understand what you're getting at, and indeed, I see no reason why you couldn't make the leap from interpreting a success/failure from a die roll to a specific roll-less action in the game. And that's very cool.

What I want to know is if there's any written, published material 4e GMs have access to that presents this interpretation to them, even as an option in game play, or a specific skill challenge in some adventure on DDI, anything.

Quote from: Benoist;387738When you get back from work, I would appreciate if could you provide me with some examples from the rules, or some published modules, anything that supports that interpretation. No rush.

I understand what you're getting at, and indeed, I see no reason why you couldn't make the leap from interpreting a success/failure from a die roll to a specific roll-less action in the game. And that's very cool.

What I want to know is if there's any written, published material 4e GMs have access to that presents this interpretation to them, even as an option in game play.

Well, I mentioned ADCP1-1 ("Jungle Hunt") off the top of my head. Thats a real example.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;387740Well, I mentioned ADCP1-1 ("Jungle Hunt") off the top of my head. Thats a real example.

Oh sorry. I didn't notice that particular example. Where can I find it?

Got the file. I'm not finding the reference yet, though.

Quote from: Benoist;387742Got the file. I'm not finding the reference yet, though.

At the beginning of the adventure, there's a reception where the players have to get a sponsor for the hunt, and each sponsor provides something. (Naelishti's naturals provides insect repellent ointment).

Later on when they begin the hunt, there are parts of a skill challenge where if you have a certain item, you get an automatic success.

There are also auto-failures; an example from the DMG is trying to talk a Duke into helping the party against some goblins, and if you try to intimidate him, it is an auto-fail.

Interesting that "social" skill challenges such as attempts to sway someone to help you are dependent on the outcome of rolls (in the DMG, the examples given at least) rather than what the characters actually say. Or at least it comes across that way. I know, the DM can do whatever, etc. etc. I'm just talking about the book and what it says.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;387745At the beginning of the adventure, there's a reception where the players have to get a sponsor for the hunt, and each sponsor provides something. (Naelishti's naturals provides insect repellent ointment).

Later on when they begin the hunt, there are parts of a skill challenge where if you have a certain item, you get an automatic success.

Ah. I see now. Thanks.

QuoteNaelishti's Naturals – This trading house specializes in the exportation of rare plants from Chult to the mainland that find use in poisons, perfumes, dyes, and medicines. They have been infiltrated by locals with a faint touch of yuan-ti blood, or they are taking advantage of locals with such blood – it’s hard to tell which, but regardless, they’re snaky. Their representative is a dusky-skinned, beautiful female shifter who moves with a sinuous grace.

House Naelishti offers a special salve, whose recipe is known only to them, that will help protect the adventurers from the hazards of the jungle environment, such as poisonous bites of jungle insects, venomous plants, and diseases. (The effects of this salve are accounted for as a benefit during one of the skill challenges.)

Sounds more like an exception to the way the skill challenge unfolds than a part of the skill challenge itself. You put the balm and basically avoid a check later on in a skill challenge. If it was an actual skill challenge situation in which some actions/choices would be given to the PCs determining the outcome of a success or failure of the skill challenge, without any mention of dice in the outcome, I'd be more satisfied by the example. Nonetheless. It's there.

:hmm:
I just wish your interpretation of it would make it into a rulebook, or 5th edition, or Essentials, whatever. Then you'd need to stop calling them "skill challenges" at all, to call them "challenges", or maybe retain the name, but broadening its meaning to mean Character or Player or Both "skill", instead of what seems to be the default meaning of "(Character) Skill Challenge".

Quote from: Werekoala;387748There are also auto-failures; an example from the DMG is trying to talk a Duke into helping the party against some goblins, and if you try to intimidate him, it is an auto-fail.

Interesting that "social" skill challenges such as attempts to sway someone to help you are dependent on the outcome of rolls (in the DMG, the examples given at least) rather than what the characters actually say. Or at least it comes across that way. I know, the DM can do whatever, etc. etc. I'm just talking about the book and what it says.

Sometimes it really is less about what you say, and more about how you say it.

Quote from: Benoist;387787I just wish your interpretation of it would make it into a rulebook, or 5th edition, or Essentials, whatever. Then you'd need to stop calling them "skill challenges" at all, to call them "challenges", or maybe retain the name, but broadening its meaning to mean Character or Player or Both "skill", instead of what seems to be the default meaning of "(Character) Skill Challenge".

OK, now I looked it up. DMG 2, page 86. Allow Options Besides Skills.

QuoteGive some thought to thinks the characters might do aside from using skills -- and be ready when you run the skill challenge to account for the things players try that you could never have anticipated.

The rule of thumb is to treat it as a secondary skill, so it's not a full success but it perhaps mitigates a failure or provides a bonus. However, there are explicitly categories of actions which should be treated as a free success.

Quote from: Thanlis;387835OK, now I looked it up. DMG 2, page 86. Allow Options Besides Skills.

Ah now that's pretty cool. Thanks!
Any chance you could scan the page or something?
Yeah. I know... I'm asking too much, am I not?

Quote from: Werekoala;387582Yeah, I know these guys like the back of my hand - we've been gaming together for 25+ years (gah). so that's not the issue; I was primarily concerned about how to "mechanically" stat up the stuff for smaller groups since, as we all know, 4e is all about balanced encounters.

Okay. What are their characters like mechanically?

Seanchai