I am trying to apply the logic of this to other games besides 4E and I think that the last thing you want is an expert in a non-gaming field to write material for a RPG. For example, Constantine Thomas (a degreed Planetary Scientist) used to write for GURPS:Traveller, GURPS: Transhuman Space, and often commented on Traveller related science subjects in various forums. The man is obviously an expert in the field of his degree, however when it comes to science fiction he often refused to consider the fiction half and instead concentrated on the science half to the exclusion of all else. This had the consequence of sucking the fun right out of the material, which is horribly bad for a game (even though it would be great for a college course).

I think it would be best to have a knowledgeable hobbyist to write for a RPG while having an expert in the field on hand for specific questions instead of having an expert in a field write the RPG. This is more art than science, and close enough is often what needs to be achieved for accuracy.

Quote from: jibbajibba;382533No you don't need mathematiciains to do stats analysis period you need mathematiciains to work on Number theory, set theory and advanced n-dimentional trig. My A-level maths teacher even refused to teach statistics because it was so far divorced from mathematics (mind you he was a bit of an elitist having studied Pure Mathematics and Philosophy at Lincoln College).

You are desiging a roleplaying game you just need to know that if I require a series of 4 successes each one with a chance of 65% to climb this wall what is my chance of climbing this wall... and similar such comundrums. For that you just need a probability engine and some smarts.

Calulators help with addition, subtraction, multiplication, and so on they don't really help much with maths which is why you are allowed to take then into maths exams :rolleyes:

My point is, probability calculators can calculate probabilities - But they don't tell you what probabilities would work well. They don't tell you how to arrange the probabilities so they mesh well; they don't tell you about synergies or (What's the opposite?) between different probabilities in the rules-set.
They don't tell you how to design a monster creation system - An absolute necessity for a game like 4e.

For a numbers-focused RPG like 4e, there has to be someone who knows how to do things like that.

what we need is a degree in tabletop game design with a specialism in RPGs

Creative writing
Anthropology
History
Probability
Game theory
Art appreciation
Martial Arts
Religion
Drama
And of course each year for one course you just play games.

(actually I have done most of these that is basically my CV....)

Don't forget a business degree - It would keep the financial "Oopsees" down.

Quote from: jeff37923;382572I am trying to apply the logic of this to other games besides 4E and I think that the last thing you want is an expert in a non-gaming field to write material for a RPG.

Yep. One of the guys who writes Ars Magica books is a qualified expert on medieval society. His books stink as RPG play aids.

I agree that anyone with any degree or none whatsoever can write an RPG, but experience with stats and math sure does sound useful when designing a crunchified, number-oriented game like 4e.  On the other hand, I am disturbed by the number of English degrees listed.  Speaking as a guy with a bachelor's in English and aspirations to grad school, I think you can get pretty far in many English programs without learning a damned thing.  Note that I don't think that gives me any grounds for casting specific aspersions on the fellows in question.  Unless someone at WotC made a specific claimed like "We hired Mr. X for his statistical rigor", this is a non-issue.

Quote from: jrients;382654On the other hand, I am disturbed by the number of English degrees listed.  Speaking as a guy with a bachelor's in English and aspirations to grad school, I think you can get pretty far in many English programs without learning a damned thing.

My friends who majored in psychology mention the exact same thing.  For the first two-and-a-half to three years of a undergraduate psychology degree program, almost all of the exams were scantron multiple-guess with no essays.

Quote from: ggroy;382657My friends who majored in psychology mention the exact same thing.  For the first two-and-a-half to three years of a undergraduate psychology degree program, almost all of the exams were scantron multiple-guess with no essays.

Well, that's pretty effin' scary.  I was more thinking along the lines of the 'give the prof his own opinions back to him and score a solid B' strategy.

Quote from: jrients;382658Well, that's pretty effin' scary.  I was more thinking along the lines of the 'give the prof his own opinions back to him and score a solid B' strategy.

In France the "giving back the prof his own opinions" thing is going on across the board, up to and well beyond Licenses and Masters. Actually, up to Licenses and Masters in fields like say History or Law it's a matter of just spitting back the course on the page. Beyond these levels, it's a matter of kissing the right ass, sucking the right dick, and nodding knowingly to your elders when asked.

Quote from: jrients;382658Well, that's pretty effin' scary.

The creepy part is that this is common practice, even at the top highly ranked universities (both ivies and non-ivies).

Quote from: Benoist;382659In France the "giving back the prof his own opinions" thing is going on across the board, up to and well beyond Licenses and Masters. Actually, up to Licenses and Masters in fields like say History or Law it's a matter of just spitting back the course on the page. Beyond these levels, it's a matter of kissing the right ass, sucking the right dick, and nodding knowingly to your elders when asked.

Back when I was in university, it was called "regurgitation".  :banghead:

Quote from: Benoist;382659Actually, up to Licenses and Masters in fields like say History or Law it's a matter of just spitting back the course on the page.

This sort of "dumbing down" isn't only just happening in the arts and social sciences.  It's also been happening simultaneously in the engineering and hard sciences undergraduate programs over the last 30+ years, albeit in a slightly different manner.

Undergraduate engineering programs just about everywhere in America, are somewhat easier today compared to 20+ years ago.

To top it off, the undergraduate math courses and degree programs at many top universities have been dumbed down somewhat, from what it was 20+ years ago.

Quote from: ggroy;382657My friends who majored in psychology mention the exact same thing.  For the first two-and-a-half to three years of a undergraduate psychology degree program, almost all of the exams were scantron multiple-guess with no essays.

One of my tutors (Geography) did an exchange programme and spent a sumester at a US university and he got told off for setting too many essays and then giving people 55% (which is a very solid 2:2 over here). Funny.

We were writing essays in exams when we were 13.

Quote from: jibbajibba;382671One of my tutors (Geography) did an exchange programme and spent a sumester at a US university and he got told off for setting too many essays and then giving people 55% (which is a very solid 2:2 over here). Funny.

We were writing essays in exams when we were 13.

Judging by your sig and previous posts, you must have went through the system when they still had O-levels?

My friends who went through the British system, mentioned the education standards there nosedived significantly after the O-levels were discontinued and replaced with something else that was watered down.

Quote from: ggroy;382674Judging by your sig and previous posts, you must have went through the system when they still had O-levels?

My friends who went through the British system, mentioned the education standards there nosedived significantly after the O-levels were discontinued and replaced with something else that was watered down.

Yup. O'levels were elitist and only 30% of kids sat them the rest took CSEs which were simpler with more multi-choice. So they simplifed the system and turned all the exams in to GCSEs which were CSEs with the numbers filed off. My little sister was the first year of them and her and all her mates got 10 As in fact so many bright kids got A's that they had to introduce a new grade A*. Prior to GCSEs the national average was 1 CSE grade 3 now 70% of kids get 5 GCSEs at a C+ grade. The easiest way to improve the normalisation of a system is to move the average down 20%
My town still has grammar schools (removed as elistist most everwhere else) when you take an exam when you are 10 and only the top 12% get in. So whilst the avertge was 1 CSE grade 3 our average was 8 o'levels (I have 11). Anyway to sum up this totally off-topic meander through the English education system. The system was unfair and a lot of poorer inner-city kids were disadvantaged, university take up levels were at about 17% and the top handful of universities were 80%+ occupied by private school kids. They had to do something but their move to fairness meant dropping academic rigor in favour of more interpretive data analysis. Now 50% of kids go to university but the number of people that can quote Virgil really has dropped.

Lastly ... when i was teaching A level Geogrpahy at a girls grammar school ('95) out of my 54 students 28 got an A grade. In the mock exam I had set and marked I gave 8 of them A grades. So yeah I guess standards keep on slipping.