Quote from: Thanlis;379115Well, um, yeah. If it's a problem that can be fixed -- and I hope everyone not named Doom in this thread is willing to admit that high level combat doesn't have to be a drag -- then I think refusing to make changes which might improve your enjoyment of the game is in fact "playing it wrong."

Again, I don't think we are arguing.  

As Doom mentioned in his response above, it's not necessarily a 'problem' for him, although I don't see coming onto an RPG discussion forum to simply make a statement and leave.  So, there is some degree of 'problem' there.  And there are certainly solutions to it.  They don't involve "it doesn't take that long for our group" followed by "you must be doing something wrong".

So, I am not primarily concerned with the 'length of combat' portion of the discussion.  I am more involved in the "no, you really aren't offering solutions" part where people are replying ultra-defensively as though their very lifestyle were under attack.

Quote from: StormBringer;379102No doubt.  It's like only one player has the spotlight, and everyone else sits around cooling their heels.  20mins of fun packed into three or four hours of game.  

Exactly, its just like inviting your mates round for a XBOX console session then each of you takes an hour long turn on GTA then you swap to the next guy

Quote from: Benoist;379152Shill tunnel vision?

Alas, it is mere irony that you actually have a link in your signature where you actually are trying to shill something, whereas I have none. (No offense Rob).

Quote from: Koltar;379133Doom, Abyssal maw,

Are you both going to visit either ORIGINS or Gen Con?

If the answer is yes - then do your test game there.

Hell advertise it!
Make it benefit a charity somehow.
 The Gamer Doubting Thomas vs. The 4th/e D&D afficianado (apologist?)


- Ed C.

Holy crap, that gives me an idea.

Scrub all the flavor elements from 4e and rebrand it as a Lucha Libre RPG.

Quote from: Mistwell;379151Empirically, it is not a fact.  Others routinely report it takes significantly less time for them.

Now if you said "Combats take 2.5 hours, for my group", that would be an accurate statement of fact.  Or "For some people, combats take 2.5 hour" would also be an accurate statement of fact.

In fact, I am pretty sure that last one is exactly what is being proposed.  The qualifiers are usually assumed in response to categorical statements to the contrary.

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;379158Holy crap, that gives me an idea.

Scrub all the flavor elements from 4e and rebrand it as a Lucha Libre RPG.

Have you seen the Brawler fighter build? It's basically a wrestler.

Quote from: jeff37923;379103Agreed. I can see scenarios where 4E would be the ideal tool for gameplay. It is just that those scenarios would involve play closer to Space Hulk or Blood Bowl, which are not the gameplay that everyone expects when they want to play D&D.

This was one of the reasons I proposed in another thread that 4e woudl make a good GMless game with some random monster selection and dungeon generation tables.

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;379158Holy crap, that gives me an idea.

Scrub all the flavor elements from 4e and rebrand it as a Lucha Libre RPG.

Glad I could help - even if unintentionally.

Hell, something good should come out of this flamefest somehow.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;379157Alas, it is mere irony that you actually have a link in your signature where you actually are trying to shill something, whereas I have none. (No offense Rob).

WOW. Get a sense of humour, douchebag.

Quote from: Benoist;379163WOW. Get a sense of humour, douchebag.

I'm sorry, were you not aware that is exactly what you are doing? I don' think there's anything wrong with it, but you are what you are.  Didn't you even like..crosspost it?

Man. Neckbeard strikes again!

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;379164I'm sorry, were you not aware that is exactly what you are doing? I don' think there's anything wrong with it, but you are what you are.  Didn't you even like..crosspost it?

Man. Neckbeard strikes again!

Nice cheap shots again, douchy (or should I start second grade insults as well and call you four eyes?).
Care to go on?

So Doom I am actually interested in the maths (i know uber geekdom)

In a 2 hour combat how many rounds would there be on either side ?

Typically how many Hp does a monster at say 15th level have and how much damage does a typical PC deal in a round?

I am interested to see if the issue stems from the tactical time it takes for your particular group to make moves or if its actually a factor of the mathematics.

As I suggested up there somewhere a 1e combat would typically have an outcome after 5 rounds (albeit a 5th level example) I was wondering if we could work out a similar value for a typical 4e 15th level encounter (I could do that for a 1e one but my guess would be that the fighter would be on c. 90hp at that point but his opponents say a trio of cloud giants would be making 2 attacks at 2d10 +10 damage each so the math more or less averages out although the fighter would hit more often as acs in 1e didn't scale as fast as hp/levels).

If you have PCs at 15th level in 4e with closer to 200 HP and the monsters are dealing only 8 points (surely that is way too low) with a hit then the maths is certainly screwed.

We would also need to know the chance to hit and the PC average damage.

It could be that there is a systemic problem in that it takes 20 rounds of combat to kill a matched encounter for a 15th level group of 5 PCs. If that is the case then taking 6 minutes per round or 1 minute for each PC and 1 minute for the DM is far from exceptional and your case is proved. If on the other hand we find that the average combat should take 5 rounds mathematically then either your guys are takign too long and AM has a point or there is a build/rule error someplace and your guys or your monsters aren't stated out right.

As a comparison I play a lot of scrabble. sometimes I play a 20 minute game where both players have 20 mins (+1 min emergency time) on the clock and games typically take 30 minutes to complete. But I also play 3 minute games where players have just three minutes (+ a minute's emergency time) and in these games you have to make sub-optimal choices as there is no time and games typically take 7.5 mins to complete. I even play social games with my family and they take hours and hours and its largely my fault.
It's the same game all versions are fun, although I do find time for role play in the short games somewhat limited

ok, typical level 15 monsters:

Eladrin Knight (Skirmisher)
HP 144;
AC 29; Fortitude 27; Reflex 29; Will 25
m Longsword (standard; at-will) • Weapon
+20 vs AC; 2d8 + 6 damage, and the target grants combat advantage until the end of its next turn

Cyclops Slaver (controller)
HP 149; Bloodied 74
AC 29; Fortitude 27; Reflex 29; Will 25
m Spear (standard; at-will) • Weapon
Reach 2; +20 vs AC; 2d10 + 4 damage

Drow Inquisitor (soldier)
HP 147; Bloodied 73
AC 31; Fortitude 27; Reflex 23; Will 26
m Scourge (standard; at-will) • Weapon
Reach 2; +22 vs AC; 1d8 + 6 damage, and the target is marked until the end of the drow inquisitor's next turn
M Punishing Strike (standard; at-will)
Marked target only; +20 vs Fortitude; 2d8 + 6 damage, and ongoing 10 damage (save ends)


You can kinda see that the soldier (the drow here at the end)  is tougher in the defenses, but his attack is initially weaker.. but once he marks someone and uses punishing strike, they take ongoing 10 damage until they save, and he can do that every round.

For a typical PC I would suggest grabbing the first level 15 out of http://iplay4e.com

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;379146I wouldn't try and prove such a thing. I could however, (probably) easily challenge a 5-member level 1 party with 20 goblin cutters. Those are level 1 minions.

Good, so you see the issue, then. it's so bad you can't even try.

On the other hand, when it comes to minions, "Probably easily" is the best you can hope for, and any party that even uses remotely crude combat tactics will have no difficulty dispatching the cutters, and then only if it's a party of extremely poorly built characters.

In fact, I'm hard pressed to think of any party that would have trouble with such a minimal encounter. Can you propose such a party, such a scenario, that would work? Everything I think of makes this, like any high-minion encounter, trivial, due to minions being broken.

And so, indeed, we've demonstrated that there is something very wrong with minions.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;379172ok, typical level 15 monsters:

Eladrin Knight (Skirmisher)
HP 144;
AC 29; Fortitude 27; Reflex 29; Will 25
m Longsword (standard; at-will) • Weapon
+20 vs AC; 2d8 + 6 damage, and the target grants combat advantage until the end of its next turn

Cyclops Slaver (controller)
HP 149; Bloodied 74
AC 29; Fortitude 27; Reflex 29; Will 25
m Spear (standard; at-will) • Weapon
Reach 2; +20 vs AC; 2d10 + 4 damage

Drow Inquisitor (soldier)
HP 147; Bloodied 73
AC 31; Fortitude 27; Reflex 23; Will 26
m Scourge (standard; at-will) • Weapon
Reach 2; +22 vs AC; 1d8 + 6 damage, and the target is marked until the end of the drow inquisitor's next turn
M Punishing Strike (standard; at-will)
Marked target only; +20 vs Fortitude; 2d8 + 6 damage, and ongoing 10 damage (save ends)


You can kinda see that the soldier (the drow here at the end)  is tougher in the defenses, but his attack is initially weaker.. but once he marks someone and uses punishing strike, they take ongoing 10 damage until they save, and he can do that every round.

For a typical PC I would suggest grabbing the first level 15 out of http://iplay4e.com

Okay i will do some sums, I am also watching the Life of Brian with the misses and the au-pair so it might not get finished tonight and I will typically fudge stuff out to an average.

Typically what numbers would be talking about? My guess would be on a party of 5 PCs we would be looking at 3 soldiers, 4 skirmisher minions and a controller. I will just go with some numbers. My first glance is that the damage does seem to be low compared to the hits and if the monster and pc hits are clsoe I can see it taking a lot of hits at 1d8 +6 (11 average damage) to deal 150 damage although I am sure that thsi is s tad more complex