I've always said skill challenges are half-baked.  The underlying idea was good, the execution is terrible.

For me, I use the original difficulties but never added the +5 for skill checks so it seems to work out fine (I find the errata numbers to be so low as to make checks completely pointless).  I do use the errata for the 3 failures = lose thing.

As for other errata, I don't bother unless its built into the character builder or monster builder.

The problems I always run into are:
* The players won't take the fucking hint when they lose a challenge.  I have to explicitly say, "hey, dipshit, you can't keep trying to roll to negotiate because you fucking lost.  the guy isn't listening anymore.  give it up."  And even then, someone else who wasn't paying attention will be all "can I roll my diplomacy?"  It's especially annoying because I try to be sim-friendly running the game and don't mention I'm using a skill challenge per se but try to integrate it organically.
* The whole "pick the guy to roll who has +15" thing is a pain in the ass, particularly when you have a larger group (7-8 PCs at a time) because somebody is almost always good at whatever it is.
* The whole "I roll diplomacy again" thing.  I've compensated for that with my own little houserule where I keep increasing the difficulty by +2 every time they use the same skill again.
* There's also a phenomena of "can I roll history?" or whatever to always try to use inappropriate skills just because they have a big bonus in them.  I wouldn't mind if they came up with a reason/idea for it.  But no, they want to just name the skill and have me figure out how it might fit into the challenge.  The counter is simple - I just say no.  It's just annoying.
* I'm not perfect, either.  As a DM, I am the master of coming up with boring skill challenges that only make sense for one or two skills.  I also find it difficult to come up with interesting results for failure (or sometimes, any result for failure).

Mandatory participation is even more infuriating, because being knocked unconscious has no long term consequences in the game (you just spend a healing surge and you're not even bloodied anymore if you have a good Cleric on hand). Any time you are literally encouraged to smack your allies in the head with a sword to make climbing a mountain easier, your game system has failed utterly.

The really infuriating part is how easy it would have been to have a system that didn't suffer those problems. Let's say instead that Skill Challenge duration was limited by a number of rounds rather than a number of rolls. Instead of saying "Roll dice until 7 hits or 4 misses" you say "Everyone gets 2 rolls." That would make things much faster, everyone would want to take their turn, and you could generate 11 different possible endpoints (0 hits to 10 hits) for a variable degree of success.

But no. They went for the system where the players get tangible mechanical rewards for figuring out how to get most of the players to not participate in the challenge while one player rolls a die ten times in a row and still only generates a simple plus or minus result.

-Frank

Hey not bad.

Quote from: jgants;374600The problems I always run into are:
* The players won't take the fucking hint when they lose a challenge.  I have to explicitly say, "hey, dipshit, you can't keep trying to roll to negotiate because you fucking lost.  the guy isn't listening anymore.  give it up."  And even then, someone else who wasn't paying attention will be all "can I roll my diplomacy?"  It's especially annoying because I try to be sim-friendly running the game and don't mention I'm using a skill challenge per se but try to integrate it organically.
* The whole "pick the guy to roll who has +15" thing is a pain in the ass, particularly when you have a larger group (7-8 PCs at a time) because somebody is almost always good at whatever it is.
* The whole "I roll diplomacy again" thing.  I've compensated for that with my own little houserule where I keep increasing the difficulty by +2 every time they use the same skill again.
* There's also a phenomena of "can I roll history?" or whatever to always try to use inappropriate skills just because they have a big bonus in them.  I wouldn't mind if they came up with a reason/idea for it.  But no, they want to just name the skill and have me figure out how it might fit into the challenge.  The counter is simple - I just say no.  It's just annoying.
* I'm not perfect, either.  As a DM, I am the master of coming up with boring skill challenges that only make sense for one or two skills.  I also find it difficult to come up with interesting results for failure (or sometimes, any result for failure).

Well don't blame yourself and your players entirely.

About the diplomacy checks, what if suddenly a player comes up with a brilliant proposal after they fail the skill challenge? To not let the NPC bother seems inorganic. The DM can easily take it into account, but according to RAW for skill challenge, a failed skill challenge is like a social TPK. This is one of the weakness of the system imo.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;374617The really infuriating part is how easy it would have been to have a system that didn't suffer those problems. Let's say instead that Skill Challenge duration was limited by a number of rounds rather than a number of rolls. Instead of saying "Roll dice until 7 hits or 4 misses" you say "Everyone gets 2 rolls." That would make things much faster, everyone would want to take their turn, and you could generate 11 different possible endpoints (0 hits to 10 hits) for a variable degree of success.

But no. They went for the system where the players get tangible mechanical rewards for figuring out how to get most of the players to not participate in the challenge while one player rolls a die ten times in a row and still only generates a simple plus or minus result.

-Frank

Check out this example. Rewards are tangible, and not even polar (as there's successes and failures to be had every turn, the overall stakes are always clear as is the end point of the challenge). Another skill challenge in the same book (Revenge of the Giants) has the characters accumulate successes until they get 3 failures; at which point the DM looks at the number of successes accumulated, and then determine the outcome. Another instance of results not being just win/fail. In short, there are many ways to communicate and raise the stakes for the party; e.g. exerting time pressure by the party having to accumulate a certain number of successes before round 4, e.g. the dungeon ceiling is about to collapse, you got 4 rounds to figure out how to unlock the magic portal (only safe exit in view). And so on and on.

Some of this is apparently even explored in WotC' own product. E.g. DMG 2 apparently features a compilation of variations on the original idea of skill challenges (by Logan Bonner, not Mearls btw), but I never bought that book when I heard that they didn't bother to playtest the new rules of skill challenges. I had been tricked into buying faulty product before (DMG 1) and found that too insulting.

It does look like some evolution on the framework, though the way it runs is funny in some cases - its plausible that most characters Bluffing really badly blows it for the check to get past the patrol (round 2), but for the Nature check to spot giant tracks??

QuoteRound 3, Nature (DC 16, standard action): The characters
look for signs of the giants’ passing. If they
succeed, they find the fastest path to the main camp.
If the group fails this check, they spend an hour
lost in the wilderness and must re-do this round.

Character1 [natural 20]: Hey look, giant footprints going that way!
Character2 [16]: And giant spoor! Eeewww!
Character3 [15]: Where?
Character4: [7] What's a giant?
Character5: [2] I search the footprints for traps. Can I use thievery instead?

Net result: Giants found 0 (since 3 perception fails cancels 2 perception successes).

So if they fail to spot the giant's tracks, they have to wait one hour in game for the next reroll. What is stopping the DM to advance the time line an hour forward, permissible of course, and then having the PC reroll immediately?

True a good DM narrates it nicely and maintains immersion but there will be groups who just cut to the chase and go on a dice rolling fest. Skill Challenge is a nice framework and I appreciate the designer's intent, but it seems quite difficult to implement it. The first DMG examples were really bad. I wish they designed it better like how they did combat rules, where most if not all DMs can handle.

Well, I still like skill challenges. I used similar procedures in 3e and they work fine. I think people are reading too much into the procedure.


All a skill challenge is, is a way to create scenes in a roleplaying game that are worth XP but don't involve combat.

That's it. All they are is skill checks. And skill checks have been a part of the game since August 2000. You want to quibble over DCs? You can assign your own DCs, it isn't hard. You can even assign your own XP rewards for them. The idea behind them is they are supposed to be worth about as much as a typical encounter.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;374649Character1 [natural 20]: Hey look, giant footprints going that way!
Character2 [16]: And giant spoor! Eeewww!
Character3 [15]: Where?
Character4: [7] What's a giant?
Character5: [2] I search the footprints for traps. Can I use thievery instead?

See, that's sheer brilliance in my book, if you play 4E as intended.

See also this (Keep on the Shadowfell impressions):

QuoteOkay, setting those problems aside, let's turn our attention to the meat of this encounter: The social skill challenge that Sir Keegan triggers. A social skill challenge that will result in brilliant conversational gems like this one:

QuoteKEEGAN: You wear a fearsome demeanor. Are you really as formidable as you look?

PC: Yup!

KEEGAN: Awesome. Well, in that case I totally believe that you're here to stop the cultists. Would you like my magic sword?

... sound kinda cheesy? Well, perhaps you'll prefer this one:

QuoteKEEGAN: If you trust your senses not to betray you, tell me what you see before you.

PC: Umm... a dead guy standing in the remains of his crypt?

KEEGAN: Wow! You've got keen eyes! With eyes like those you must be here to stop the cultists. Would you like my magic sword?

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;374652Well, I still like skill challenges. I used similar procedures in 3e and they work fine. I think people are reading too much into the procedure.


All a skill challenge is, is a way to create scenes in a roleplaying game that are worth XP but don't involve combat.

That's it. All they are is skill checks. And skill checks have been a part of the game since August 2000. You want to quibble over DCs? You can assign your own DCs, it isn't hard. You can even assign your own XP rewards for them. The idea behind them is they are supposed to be worth about as much as a typical encounter.

That's all very fine, but it makes me wonder why it got touted as the next big thing in D&D, up to including the "revolutionary rules for social combat" which are probably still sitting next to the virtual game table awaiting publication any minute.

You know, a more elaborate instance of an "example of play" of a roleplaying scene which has all the players engaged, intermingled with the occasional skill check just like in the 3.0 DMG example, would have done that job (the job you describe) as well. The "audience with a duke" in 4E DMG 1 isn't even far off (just need to excise some of the bits).

In a recent interview with Mearls he said that one thing he learnt from Forge games is the lesson to never include a mechanics people don't want to use.

I do believe the number of people still using skill challenges as initially designed (irrespective of DC adjustments) is so small as to merit applying Mearls' "lesson" to them. Or in Frank Trollman's words on that tBP-thread, 'If you, as a designer, wouldn't want to use the very mechanics you designed in your home game then don't publish them.'

Quote from: Windjammer;374661That's all very fine, but it makes me wonder why it got touted as the next big thing in D&D, up to including the "revolutionary rules for social combat" which are probably still sitting next to the virtual game table awaiting publication any minute.

You know, a more elaborate instance of an "example of play" of a roleplaying scene which has all the players engaged, intermingled with the occasional skill check just like in the 3.0 DMG example, would have done that job (the job you describe) as well. The "audience with a duke" in 4E DMG 1 isn't even far off (just need to excise some of the bits).

I don't know. There were story awards and ad hoc XP in 3rd Edition as well, and I recall this created a similar kind of internet upset.. but you know what the basis of a lot of the ire back then was? It was considered an "option" (not officially part of the system) and there was no official system for coming up with the DCs or the XP amount of the awards.

Then as now, the primary people who had an issue with it, didn't actually play the game.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;374652That's it. All they are is skill checks. And skill checks have been a part of the game since August 2000. You want to quibble over DCs? You can assign your own DCs, it isn't hard. You can even assign your own XP rewards for them. The idea behind them is they are supposed to be worth about as much as a typical encounter.

Hey man, it's early, and no one has really started to fling shit yet.  No need to bust out the size 4 text yet. The discussion, to me, has been helpful so far.
 

Quote
All a skill challenge is, is a way to create scenes in a roleplaying game that are worth XP but don't involve combat.

You say this, and I think that's part of it.  But I'd prefer to define an ideal skill challenge more like: "A test of skills that is just as important as a combat."  So I want to see what I can get out of the system, and get it right, you know?

So, this example that Windjammer provided is interesting.  Like AM pointed out up-thread, it uses group skill checks.  Those look okay, but you have to read the results as affecting the whole party, not each roll.  So, unlike BSJ's scenario, you don't read each die as yes/no there are tracks.  You zoom out; Player A was barking up the right tree but Player B misidentified deer spoor and Player C accidentally walked over and ruined the tracks that did belong to ogres.  Overall? The party failed that round.  It's not natural thinking for most of us, but I think that's how it has group checks have to be interpreted.

The example also has consequences turn-by-turn.  Those look like good things, even though this example seems pretty boring (failed this time? Fight! This time? Fight again!) but you could make it interesting.  Now, what made my flesh crawl was how the author determined the PC actions based on the phase of the Challenge.  "You're trying to intimidate the orcs now, roll that."  I don't like that one bit.  I even prefer the RAW approach where you can attempt using a secondary skill.  

Quote from: FrankTrollmanMandatory participation is even more infuriating, because being knocked unconscious has no long term consequences in the game (you just spend a healing surge and you're not even bloodied anymore if you have a good Cleric on hand). Any time you are literally encouraged to smack your allies in the head with a sword to make climbing a mountain easier, your game system has failed utterly.

Yeah, I agree.  And I think WoTC does too, as it this was stripped out in the errata.  Like, I get what they were originally thinking ("Wouldn't it be great if everyone got to do something every round!?  This is a cooperative game.") but, shit, did they ever playtest the system with gamers outside the office?

I think there is a misconception about Skill Challenges (I had it too on first read or two) where when you begin one, you set down your beans in front of your players and play the thing out round-by-round like a combat.  But I really don't think they were all supposed to be used that way.

I wonder if anyone could describe/include/link to a couple of examples of actual WoTC published Skill Challenges post-errata?

(The following is from an LFR adventure). I guess this is kinda typical for a 4E Skill Challenge. The PCs have infiltrated a school to investigate an insidious drug cartel.


Encounter 3: Someone’s Missing
Skill Challenge Level 1/3, Complexity 1 (100/150 XP)
This is an investigative encounter. The main goal is to discover what caused the ‘disease’, and that a student, Laurin d’Lysander, deals with it.
Laurin, however, has disappeared. He tries to hide from Barlunien, fearing that now that her game is up, she seeks to kill him. He hopes to meet with Jhenta and escape the earth mote through the elevator at night.
He is right as well – Barlunien has charmed Brace and ordered him to kill Laurin. While she does not know what Laurin used as a hideout, she anticipates that Jhenta eventually leads them to it, and told Brace to keep an eye on her.
The PCs have some time for this investigation, though it is wise to keep it to one or two days at most. After that time, the PCs should really have tracked down Laurin.

PCs who have played DRAG1-7 likely suspect the Agony drug is involved. These PCs still need to investigate the students at the infirmary to confirm their suspicions.
Skill Challenge: A Day at School

• Goal: Find out that the cause of the problems is a drug (if the PCs do not yet suspect this), and locate the person who trafficked the drug.
  
• Complexity: 1 (4 successes before 3 failures)
  
• Primary Skills: Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidation, Perception.
  
• Other Skills: Bluff, Athletics, Acrobatics, Knowledge
  
• Victory: The PCs timely discover that the “disease” is a drug-like poison, and manage to locate Laurin.
  
• Defeat: The PCs take too long. The villains find Laurin first, and Barlunien is warned of the PCs’ investigations.
  

Depending on what the PCs decide to do, you should select the appropriate scene below. Note that at least some PCs are expected to run class, so their investigation is occasionally interrupted with that scene (which you can also use to add some suspense and delay if the PCs progress quickly).
This challenge ends when the PCs have learned where Laurin is – either by discovering the secret hide out, or by following Jhenta Cormaeril or Brace.

Scene: Teaching Class
The PCs are introduced as teachers, and have to spend at least one or two hours in class that day. Providing a good cover (and an enticing class) can aid in winning the students trusts and remove the suspicion of fellow teachers.

Course-appropriate Skill (varies) DC 15/16 (trained only; no successes, maximum one per PC)
The PC gives a class in a field that he picked (see Encounter 2 for the proper skill to use for a chosen subject) and captivates the students with their knowledge or skill. If a PC is not trained in anything applicable, he can either use Bluff to fake a course, or ask Torleaf to arrange for the class to be rescheduled.
A success earns that PC the story award DALE19 Teacher at Arrowpoint, and grants a +2 bonus on the next skill check by that PC. A failure grants a -2 penalty on the next skill check by that PC.

Scene: Meeting the Staff
The PCs can talk to the staff. The most obvious places to do so are the mess hall during meals or after teaching class.
Bluff or Diplomacy DC 10/11 (no successes, removes one failure, useable only once): The PC manages to win over some teachers. They do not find any more information, but manage to earn some trust and avoid suspicion.
If a PC gives away why they are there, this instead earns a failure.

Intimidation DC 15/16 (no successes, removes one failure, useable only once): Bullying a teacher earns the PC a bad reputation and causes teachers to avoid that PC, allowing some breathing room to investigate.
If a PC gives away why they are there, this instead earns a failure.

Perception DC 10/11 (1 success, 1 maximum)
Searching Statwick’s office (Torleaf provides access) reveals a hidden compartment in his desk, containing his diary. Give the PCs Handout 2.

Insight DC 10/11 (no successes)
The PC learns that not all staff gets along well. Gulkin is a loner who likes to lock himself in his lab. Brace is a simpleton and easily manipulated. Shem Ra Dak is uncouth and too easy to anger. Most other teachers avoid all of these three.

Scene: The Infirmary
The infirmary is where the worst cases are being treated. So far there are nine students in the infirmary. Sabrelle, the school nurse, cares for the patients. She is competent but does not have healing powers, relying on mundane skills. She wears a cloak of the chirurgeon +1, which is actually part of the infirmary. If PCs ready to attempt to use their own skills, she offers them the use of the cloak. The PCs may earn the cloak at the end of the adventure (see the conclusion).
Heal DC 10/11 (1 success, 1 maximum)
When a PC examines the students, he notices symptoms of withdrawal and in some cases poisoning. In a few cases it is evident that a drug has been taken but no withdrawal symptoms are yet showing. PCs can conclude that the cause is a drug, and that some students must still have access to that drug. If any PCs have played DRAG1-7, they have a +2 bonus to recognize the drug. These PCs see similarities to the drug from that adventure (though it seems slightly less powerful).

Scene: Meeting the Students
PCs can search the rooms and talk to the various students.
Diplomacy or Streetwise DC 15/16 (1 success, no maximum)
The PC uncovers rumors about two groups of students who remain tightly knit. One, the Loyalists, is lead by Laurin d’Lysander, who sees himself as the next hope for Cormyran royalty. Jhenta Cormaeril, a vane girl, leads Sune’s Children. She secretly has a crush on Laurin even though the two are rivals.
A second success reveals that the Loyalists secretly meet at night during curfew, and that Laurin himself has not been seen the whole day.
If the PCs specifically target Jhenta and ask about Laurin, a success lets her slip that she believes Laurin is in trouble. He had secret meetings, which he refused to tell her about when she confronted him. She claims not to know where the meetings are.
Insight or Streetwise DC 10/11 (1 success, 1 maximum)
The PC gets a feel for the group dynamics. Some students are random targets, but a large number belong to a distinct group of young nobles who are all members of the griffon flying class, specifically Laurin’s group.
Insight DC 15/16 (when a PC deliberately targets Jhenta, 1 success, 1 maximum)
If the PCs target Jhenta, a success indicates she is upset. Confronting her gets her to admit she is worried about Laurin.
If the PCs have asked Jhenta where the meetings were held, a successful Insight check reveals she is lying about not knowing where the meetings are held.
Intimidate DC 10/11 (1 success, 1 maximum, only useable if a PC deliberately targets a student from Lauren’s group)
The PC intimidates someone from Laurin’s circle of fellow students. This yields the following results: Laurin provided them with some form of soldier drug and they are meeting every night at the old shack near the earth mote edge where Laurin distributes the drug.
Intimidate DC 15/16 (when a PC deliberately targets Jhenta, 1 success, 1 maximum)
The PC pressures Jhenta to reveal that Laurin’s secret meetings were held at the old shack near the earth mote edge. She (truthfully) denies knowing what he did there.
Perception DC 10/11 (no successes)
Only make this check if the PCs are conducting a search of the student rooms or are counting heads. Searches in the rooms reveal nothing out of the ordinary. The few students who have the drug are hiding it outside of the main buildings. However, the PC realizes that one student, Laurin, is missing. (Using this as leverage grants a +2 on Diplomacy, Streetwise, or Intimidation checks with students.)

Scene: A Conspicuous Meeting
The PCs might want to follow and observe certain people, especially those they get suspicious of, such as Jhenta. Following them around most of the day may annoy the students if they notice the PCs. This may lead to open disputes.

Perception DC 10/11 (1 success, 1 maximum)
The PCs lie in wait for nightly activities and either detect Jhenta or, if they wait longer and do not immediately pursue her, Brace the groundskeeper moving through the grounds at night. If they follow them they need to make the stealth check below.
Stealth DC 15/16 (1 success, 1 maximum)
The PCs attempt to follow Jhenta or Brace. This is a group check. If half or more of the PCs fail, they are noticed (those successful cover the mistakes of the others, but only up to a point). In that case, Jhenta or Brace make a run to the hollow, and the PCs momentarily loose them in the night. This ends this challenge regardless of the successes earned.

• Ending the Encounter
  
• If the PCs have not earned three failures by the time they find Laurin’s hideout, they succeed on this challenge, even if they failed the Stealth check in the last scene or managed to find him early.
• Success: The PCs find Laurin and Jhenta before Brace does.
• Failure: The PCs find Laurin and Jhenta after Brace does, and Jhenta is badly hurt.

Experience Points
The PCs earn 20 / 30 xp if they succeed in the skill challenge. They earn half xp if they failed. This encounter does not count towards a milestone.
Treasure
The only treasure in this encounter is the cloak of the chirurgeon, worn by the school nurse Sabrelle.

Quote from: winkingbishop;374664The example also has consequences turn-by-turn.  Those look like good things, even though this example seems pretty boring (failed this time? Fight! This time? Fight again!) but you could make it interesting.

Important: except for two instances which are phrased in unmistakable language, I personally wouldn't parse these as combat encounters. Rather, they get monsters on their heels, and then have the option to hide from these, take quite a long way from their actual path, etc., and even when they are approached in clear sight I'd give them the option to bluff their way out (just as specified in round 2), use rituals, etc. I think it was Stuart who said it a long time ago - don't slam down map+minis on a table when it isn't clear whether the encounter will devolve into a fight yet. (Sure, sometimes visualizing it may help, but it does incline some people to lean heavily towards going for combat.)

QuoteI wonder if anyone could describe/include/link to a couple of examples of actual WoTC published Skill Challenges post-errata?

DMG 2 contains one or several, apparently.

Quote from: Windjammer;374675DMG 2 contains one or several, apparently.

I posted one that is a production one rather than a sample/example.