I've been thinking of setting up a campaign for my sons again and decided that some concepts in Castles and Crusades are just a little too, nit picky for an eight year old.  So, anyhow, the last few times I've run C&C with the kids I found myself thinking daily powers and what not would actually be easier for them to manage and they'd enjoy shouting stupid power names out when they attack.

I was all set to pick up the Monster Manual and everything.  So I got out the Player's Handbook and started looking through it.  I still don't think it's much like D&D but there's a game in there.  And there it is, crossbows do less damage than longbows aren't any easier to hit with.

I think I'll burn the fucking book...

Well in 4e, Exotic weapon*  > military weapon > simple weapon
(and there's no balancing factor for not adding STR bonus to x-bows since both bows and x-bows add DEX mod to damage)

I hadn't noticed that particular gem before, but similarly, the Bastard Sword (exotic weapon) effectively does more damage that a Greatsword (military). Both get base d10, but you can pick up a +1 to damage for using the bastard sword two-handed.



*whatever they call those, I don't remember offhand

Big deal.

QuoteBig deal.

Well there are more blatant system issues.
Now, we can probably explain away a weapon with a 1200 lb equivalent pull dealing more damage than one with a pull of 150 if we just apply the idea that hit points aren't actually damage...

Not that I am super inclined to defend 4e but this is true of AD&D too, longbows are the better weapon there on almost every axis. 3e did do a reasonable job of balancing out & preserving the characteristics of longbow vs. crossbow, though.

Quote from: David Johansen;372056And there it is, crossbows do less damage than longbows aren't any easier to hit with.

I think I'll burn the fucking book...

Yes. That would be a reasonable response given the game's failure to model longbows to your satisfication. I destroyed my Sharp Aquos TV with a sledgehammer due to the fact that I had to inconveniently flip open the remote just to press the mute button, so I understand.

Quote from: Imp;372079Not that I am super inclined to defend 4e but this is true of AD&D too, longbows are the better weapon there on almost every axis.

I could be wrong, but isn't that how it works in real life?  I thought the only thing the crossbow had going for it was that any idiot could operate it effectively (you know the saying, "If you want to train a longbowman, start with his grandfather" or something like that).

Quote from: David Johansen;372056I've been thinking of setting up a campaign for my sons again and decided that some concepts in Castles and Crusades are just a little too, nit picky for an eight year old.  So, anyhow, the last few times I've run C&C with the kids I found myself thinking daily powers and what not would actually be easier for them to manage and they'd enjoy shouting stupid power names out when they attack.

I was all set to pick up the Monster Manual and everything.  So I got out the Player's Handbook and started looking through it.  I still don't think it's much like D&D but there's a game in there.  And there it is, crossbows do less damage than longbows aren't any easier to hit with.

I think I'll burn the fucking book...

Yeah, cuz I'm sure your 8 year old gives a shit about how "realistically accurate" the weapon damage values are. :rolleyes:

If that's really your Mt. Everest here, well, I guess more power to you. Sometimes its those little things that you really can't argue against. But really, it seems to me that if that were the only real problem (and not the "straw that broke the camel's back") you wouldn't have this reaction, you'd just house rule it or something.

RPGPundit

It's a question of emulation/immersion to him. I understand, personally.

Quote from: David Johansen;372056I've been thinking of setting up a campaign for my sons again and decided that some concepts in Castles and Crusades are just a little too, nit picky for an eight year old.

What is too nit picky for your eight-year-old?

Since we're bitching about 4e here, I thought I'd mention something that annoyed me this past week. Clerics can't use shields. WTF?

In the interests of "game balance" they decided that a Cleric shouldn't be able to equip a shield because it gives them too much of a bonus to their AC.

This is the kind of design bullshit that causes a cognitive disconnect for people that have been playing D&D for thirty years.

Why can't clerics equip shields when they always have before? Because of "game balance." Nothing more.

Quote from: Imp;372079Not that I am super inclined to defend 4e but this is true of AD&D too, longbows are the better weapon there on almost every axis.

Not true in 1E AD&D -- yeah the heavy crossbow has 1 point lower max. damage against man-sized opponents (it actually does 1 point more against Large opponents: 2-7 vs 1-6), but it has the same average damage (1-6 and 2-5 both = 3.5 average), longer range (8/16/24 vs 7/14/21), and equal or better "to hit" adjustment against every AC, so most of the time using a heavy crossbow you're going to have at least a +1 bonus to hit (because of the AC adjustment) and, if the target happens to be between 70-80 or 140-160 yards away, an even bigger bonus compared to a long bow. Of course having 1/4 the ROF (one shot every 2 rounds instead of 2 shots per round) almost certainly outweighs that bonus, but that's a different issue than complaining that the crossbow doesn't do as much damage or have any bonuses to hit, both of which are untrue.

"But no one we knew ever used those weapon vs AC adjustments" comes the inevitable response. Well, that's your problem right there.

You're approaching this wrong; taking the 4e = MMO template, then damage isn't indicated on a "per attack" basis, but a "Damage over Time (DoT)" basis. Since you can shoot a longbow twice as fast as a crossbow, the DoT is lower for the crossbow.

(....runs)

Quote from: PaladinCA;372114Why can't clerics equip shields when they always have before? Because of "game balance." Nothing more.

Remind me again why clerics were prohibited from using edged weapons in earlier editions.

Quote from: two_fishes;372123Remind me again why clerics were prohibited from using edged weapons in earlier editions.

Because only heathens get clean kills.  To truly punish the wicked you have to beat them into submission.