Quote from: Joethelawyer;371910As for there being so many in Denver, for those who haven't been there, Denver is a lot like Boston, in that most of the city is in outlying areas, as opposed to bing in the downtown urban city setting.  It's sprawling suburbia-land.  To actually get into the city itself is a bitch and a half. (Did they ever finish the T-REX mess guys?)  That may be why there are so many stores, mostly in outlying areas. Each outlying area is like an independent region unto itself, due to the sprawling nature of it.

Yeah, they did finish up T-Rex, and it's pretty cool.  They're also now working on a westbound light-rail line that'll make it a quick walk for me to go downtown.

That said, that may be why there's so many stores, but it doesn't explain why so many stores are thriving, when in other cities of similar size it seems like there's only one store that can survive.

Quote from: Joethelawyer;371910What's interesting here is the Colorado Springs angle.  No offense intended, but having lived in Colorado for about 5 years, but having come from the Metropolitan East Coast, I felt like Stranger in a Strange Land out there.  I'm about to broadly stereotype the area:

1.  Heavy Military presence. (Air Force Academy, as well as military bases.)
2.  Heavy Religious/Focus on the Family/Promise Keepers type presence.

It's Like George W. Bush/Sarah Palin land.  It's a heavy values-laden area.

Some part of me feels that there are so many stores in Springs because of those 2 factors above, but I am at a loss as to describe why that is.  Something to do with traditional family values, of sitting around a table playing games together, as well as the geek mystique taken away from wargaming because of the military culture.  

I'd be interested in what the guys who live there feel about this.

I'd have to disagree in part here.  RPGs have been big in Colorado Springs since I grew up there.  The Focus on Family types did not move into the late 80's.  Of those I know who still live there, although the Focus on Family types are still prevelant, the culture of the city is not defined by them.  A bigger influence may be the military presence.  I think it may have more to do with a depressed economy in Colorado and there is not just a lot to indoors for a teenager or young twenty something in the Springs, compared to bigger cities.  You also have CC near the locus of all those game stores.

QuoteAgain, no offense intended.

As for there being so many in Denver, for those who haven't been there, Denver is a lot like Boston, in that most of the city is in outlying areas, as opposed to bing in the downtown urban city setting.  It's sprawling suburbia-land.  To actually get into the city itself is a bitch and a half. (Did they ever finish the T-REX mess guys?)  That may be why there are so many stores, mostly in outlying areas. Each outlying area is like an independent region unto itself, due to the sprawling nature of it.

I've lived in Denver and now live outside Boston, frankly, the two areas are not even remotely alike.  Denver is suburbia heavy, in the classic sense.  Boston is not.  It has a night life / city culture that is much larger than Denver's.  The whole Cambridge-Brookline scene.  You have plenty of people really living close to the city in the South End, Southy, the North End.  Restaurants, pubs (oh the Irish pubs) and clubs galore.  Big time sports that you can easily get to by mass transit.  There is realy nothing like that in Denver.  There are also darn few games stores in the Boston Area.

QuoteI'm surprised there aren't many gaming stores in the Republic of Boulder.  

Your post is like a travelogue of my life.  Another placed I lived for about 6 years.  Boulder is a real outdoors focused city and college town.  Don't get me wrong you can get a RPG game going there but I don't think you'll get the kind of desire to buy the new that can keep a store in business.  People just have other things to lavish that kind of attention on.  The one FLGS that was there when I lived there was one of those badly run affairs where the owner was more interested in playing Warhammer than customer service.  It didn't last long.

Quote from: Xanther;371913I'd have to disagree in part here.  RPGs have been big in Colorado Springs since I grew up there.  The Focus on Family types did not move into the late 80's.  Of those I know who still live there, although the Focus on Family types are still prevelant, the culture of the city is not defined by them.  A bigger influence may be the military presence.  I think it may have more to do with a depressed economy in Colorado and there is not just a lot to indoors for a teenager or young twenty something in the Springs, compared to bigger cities.  You also have CC near the locus of all those game stores.


I've lived in Denver and now live outside Boston, frankly, the two areas are not even remotely alike.  Denver is suburbia heavy, in the classic sense.  Boston is not.  It has a night life / city culture that is much larger than Denver's.  The whole Cambridge-Brookline scene.  You have plenty of people really living close to the city in the South End, Southy, the North End.  Restaurants, pubs (oh the Irish pubs) and clubs galore.  Big time sports that you can easily get to by mass transit.  There is realy nothing like that in Denver.  There are also darn few games stores in the Boston Area.


Your post is like a travelogue of my life.  Another placed I lived for about 6 years.  Boulder is a real outdoors focused city and college town.  Don't get me wrong you can get a RPG game going there but I don't think you'll get the kind of desire to buy the new that can keep a store in business.  People just have other things to lavish that kind of attention on.  The one FLGS that was there when I lived there was one of those badly run affairs where the owner was more interested in playing Warhammer than customer service.  It didn't last long.

I was only in CO from 2001-2006, so was unfamiliar with the background of Springs.  

You're right on the Boston and Denver thing in that they aren't a direct comparison, but as opposed to say NY City, where the people are pressed together in a relatively small geographic area, I think the comparison holds true.  Boston does have a bigger and more vibrant metro area and nightlife, and it is easy to get to the downtown from the outlying areas than in Denver.  

Damn right about Denver's nightlife though.  I spent one evening hunting down an all night coffee shop, of which there are a million out here even in shitty little bumfuck towns like where I live now.  As far as I was able to determine, there was exactly 1 all night coffee place, a Starbucks, near the Darth Vader Building. exit---Colorado Blvd. I think it was.  

The whole downtown closed down at 11 pm or so it seemed.  It was pathetic.  You couldn't go out to dinner past 10 pm.  WTF?

Anyhow, I don't know why, but I think there's something to be said for hobby/game stores needing a certain type of community around it in order to thrive. What the characteristics of that community are, I dunno.  Look a NYC---1 game/hobby store in the whole 11 million person town. WTF?

Quote from: Joethelawyer;371917Anyhow, I don't know why, but I think there's something to be said for hobby/game stores needing a certain type of community around it in order to thrive. What the characteristics of that community are, I dunno.  Look a NYC---1 game/hobby store in the whole 11 million person town. WTF?

I don't think it's the community; I think it's rents. Rents are just cheaper in the Midwest, and gaming stores live on the ragged edge of being profitable. Since most of the costs are fixed, lowering rent is a big fat hairy deal.

That said, having the right community does help. Boston has way more game stores than New York because it's a huge college town. Pandemonium wouldn't be around right now, IMHO, if it wasn't for the Harvard Warhammer club.

(Pandemonium, Compleat Strategist, YMG, Hobby Bunker, Battleground... -- Boston's not short on stores.)

Quote from: kythri;371845I'm curious, if fuel prices were to go through the roof, if this might cause a resurgence of local game stores.

At $5.00 or $6.00/gallon, I'd imagine people would drive significantly less, and I'd imagine that USPS/UPS/FedEx prices would get more expensive.  Perhaps we'd see the end of Amazon's free shipping?

I wonder if that would be enough to make it economical to open/re-open local stores in some of the smaller areas.

Interesting thought?

How do the books get the LGS?
Their prices will have to up too.

Quote from: kythri;371845I'm curious, if fuel prices were to go through the roof, if this might cause a resurgence of local game stores.

At $5.00 or $6.00/gallon, I'd imagine people would drive significantly less, and I'd imagine that USPS/UPS/FedEx prices would get more expensive.  Perhaps we'd see the end of Amazon's free shipping?

I wonder if that would be enough to make it economical to open/re-open local stores in some of the smaller areas.

Maybe.  Although a friend of mine closed his comic and game store last year when gas prices spiked because people didn't have the money to spend on comics and games.  It was all going into their gas tanks.

I think it would likely spark people moving more and more towards electronic books than opening game stores...like me, for instance: No more free shipping from Amazon, plus the closest store is an hour away with $5 gas?  How you doin', half price PDF?

Quote from: Aos;372030How do the books get the LGS?
Their prices will have to up too.

Yeah, I'm not seeing how high gas prices would do squat to help hobby stores.  Higher shipping for them, few discretionary dollars because just going to and from work is that much more expensive, etc.

Quote from: Aos;372030How do the books get the LGS?
Their prices will have to up too.

I can't claim personal familiarity with the current delivery system, but I'm in 2-3 shops often enough to know that they're getting UPS shipments multiple times per week.

If I were to assume that's common (and given the current economy the idea of large stock orders doesn't make a ton of sense - I see the shops I'm in keeping one copy of anything other than the few most popular titles in stock, and re-ordering a single copy for stock when the existing one sells), an "astronomical" rise in fuel prices would likely impact the current order/deliver method of many multiple UPS shipments pretty seriously.

I'd be curious to see if the distribution/delivery channel evolves to combat the hypothetically increased fuel prices.

More distribution centers, a different delivery system (such as the local DC having it's own delivery fleet)?

Obviously, such a system isn't economical at present, or they wouldn't be doing it - I'm curious if the orders got large enough (due to a bi-weekly or monthly shipment to save on delivery costs) if such would end up being feasible.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;372032Yeah, I'm not seeing how high gas prices would do squat to help hobby stores.  Higher shipping for them, few discretionary dollars because just going to and from work is that much more expensive, etc.

The prevalance of cheap automobiles and cheap gas seems to have dictated the development of cities/towns, and concentrated the commercial district into a few areas, and constrained commercial development from the outlying residential areas - and why not?  It's cheap and relatively quick to drive 10-15 miles to go buy stuff (at least, it is right now).

I'd imagine that, over time, you'd see a shift towards less urban-commercial-centers and residential-only suburban areas, and more commercial establishments reaching farther out.

In the UK gas already costs $6.50 a galleon and amazon still delivers for free most of the time. We don't have any FLGS not counting Games Workshop stores (well the nearest store to where I live is 35 miles away and its prettycrap). Even London with close to 10M people only has a couple.

Quote from: kythri;372093The prevalance of cheap automobiles and cheap gas seems to have dictated the development of cities/towns, and concentrated the commercial district into a few areas, and constrained commercial development from the outlying residential areas - and why not?  It's cheap and relatively quick to drive 10-15 miles to go buy stuff (at least, it is right now).

I'd imagine that, over time, you'd see a shift towards less urban-commercial-centers and residential-only suburban areas, and more commercial establishments reaching farther out.

Except you still have the issues of shipping to the stores...which would only get worse unless the major delivery services also start adding outposts further out.  I've seen hobby stores *in* cities that couldn't get reliable delivery from UPS or FedEx...the ones in smaller towns and the like had it even worse.  Tack on the extra fuel surcharge and...yeah.

Not saying you're view is wrong, just saying I'm seeing the downsides to this way more than I am the upsides.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;372185Except you still have the issues of shipping to the stores...which would only get worse unless the major delivery services also start adding outposts further out.  I've seen hobby stores *in* cities that couldn't get reliable delivery from UPS or FedEx...the ones in smaller towns and the like had it even worse.  Tack on the extra fuel surcharge and...yeah.

Not saying you're view is wrong, just saying I'm seeing the downsides to this way more than I am the upsides.

Maybe I'm just dreaming out loud...I don't like suburbs.  As much as I like huge conglomerates that sell me stuff for cheap, I enjoy shopping at tiny little dives far more, and would love to see a bunch of game stores sprout back up.

Many game stores also sell other things, like comics and some even sell these archaic items known as "books". (Look it up on wikipedia.)

By combining to sell a variety of things I imagine many FLGS might survive.  Some I know even sell toys and models too.

Also, the FLGS is sort of like a "mini convention" in atmosphere, and may gamers enjoy the ambiance and meeting new gamers at them, or just meeting friends.