Just read a blog post here:

http://backscreenpass.blogspot.com/2010/03/players-handbook-3-review-4e.html

Pertinent part:

"I personally think PHB3 marks a significant change in the design  philosophy of 4e.  Up till now, if I had to choose a single overriding  design goal as the obvious priority of 4e, it would have been balance.   Every class and race and power was carefully balanced against the other  options.  Unlike 3e, it was genuinely difficult if not impossible to  make a character that could not hold her own against the min-maxers best  efforts.  Unlike 3e, you did not have to carefully analyze what impact  feat choices would have far down the road.  You could pretty much just  pick what sounded cool in 4e character creation and rest assured that  the carefully balanced mechanics behind the scene would allow your  character to hit and do damage within the frequencies specified by the  design parameters.

Well, in a way that is all in the past now.  The Hybrid Character rules  (see my review for more details on these rules) pretty much throw  balance out the window.  By allowing complete freedom to mix and max  classes, you could easily end up with a horribly unbalanced class that  could not pull its weight in combat if you were not careful.  I see this  as a major shift for 4e - the desire to provide options for players to  build the character of their dreams has trumped the desire for balance."


With balance being a big selling point, or so I've heard, what do you think this means for 4e's future evolution?

I don't think it's going to significantly change the face of the game, especially since, as the blog author notes, it seems tilted towards the low-power end rather than the high-power end.

Quote from: Joethelawyer;366251With balance being a big selling point, or so I've heard, what do you think this means for 4e's future evolution?

I think this development will help make 3.x fans who are only playing 4E because it's what the rest of the group decided on a little happier, but the impact won't be all that much more significant.

Personally, the only balance I really need in the game is the ability of characters to contribute in and out of combat at least to SOME degree.

Wonder how many 4E DMs will ban the hybrid classes, shortly after 4E PHB3 is released.

Wonder how breakable a minotaur ranger/barbarian hybrid class can be made, with a twin strike at-will and barbarian rage.

My group has been running a game with several hybrid characters to test out the hybrid rules.  I am not really impressed with the hybrid rules.  Personally, I think that hybrid characters are less powerful, in the scope of the 4e mechanics, than a single classed character.  I also feel the same way about multiclassing in 4e D&D in that it's a waste of feats.

Quote from: Joethelawyer;366251With balance being a big selling point, or so I've heard, what do you think this means for 4e's future evolution?

At the present time, I suspect it may very well be "too little too late" to attract the 3E/3.5E/Pathfinder powergamer "fence sitters" to 4E.  That ship has sailed already, and is long gone.

Some "broken" overpowered race + hybrid class combinations will probably be found. I wouldn't be surprised if 4E DMs will start quickly banning stuff left and right.  This would spell disaster for future sales of player centric crunch heavy splatbooks, if some WotC splatbooks take on a reputation for being "broken".

Quote from: ggroy;366258Wonder how many 4E DMs will ban the hybrid classes, shortly after 4E PHB3 is released.

Wonder how breakable a minotaur ranger/barbarian hybrid class can be made, with a twin strike at-will and barbarian rage.

I whipped this character up using the Character Builder Quick Character function, and swapped out the Ranger at-will power to give it Twin Strike (the system picked Predator Strike originally).  Also, it assigned a greatsword as the character's weapon originally, and I swapped it out for two melee weapons so it could use Twin Strike.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Roger Dodger, level 1
Minotaur, Barbarian|Ranger
Hybrid Ranger: Hybrid Ranger Fortitude

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 16, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 11.


AC: 13 Fort: 17 Reflex: 10 Will: 10
HP: 29 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 7

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +7, Heal +5, Intimidate +5, Stealth +4

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics -1, Arcana -1, Bluff, Diplomacy, Dungeoneering, Endurance +2, History -1, Insight, Perception +2, Religion -1, Streetwise, Thievery -1, Athletics +4

FEATS
Level 1: Opportunity Gore

POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Twin Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Pressing Strike
Hybrid encounter 1: Hunter-Partner Strike
Hybrid daily 1: Swift Panther Rage

ITEMS
Hide Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Battleaxe, Light war pick
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

So, with Twin Strike, he is +7 (1d10) with the battle axe and +7 (1d6) with the light pick.

You know, I'm not a huge fan of 4e but I have to give kudos to a game with a feat called, "Opportunity gore".

Quote from: Drohem;366261I whipped this character up using the Character Builder Quick Character function, and swapped out the Ranger at-will power to give it Twin Strike (the system picked Predator Strike originally).  Also, it assigned a greatsword as the character's weapon originally, and I swapped it out for two melee weapons so it could use Twin Strike.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Roger Dodger, level 1
Minotaur, Barbarian|Ranger
Hybrid Ranger: Hybrid Ranger Fortitude...

As compared to a Minotaur Barbarian1/Ranger1 using Savage Species with 3e...

Baale, male Minotaur Bbn1,Rgr 1, Minotaur8:
 
CR 9.3, Size L, Level 12, HD 1D12+6D8+1D8 + 24, hp 57,
Init 1, Spd 25,
AC 22 (Natural +5, Armor +5, Shield +2, Size -1, Dex +1),
Attack +10/+5/+0,  Reach 10'
Saves Fort +10, Ref +7, Will +9; AL CE;

Str 24(+7), Dex 13(+1), Con 14(+2), Int 8(-1), Wis 17(+3), Cha 10.

Attacks:
[*huge greataxe*]:huge greataxe +16 melee (2d8+14/21-20);  
[*gore*]:gore +16 melee (1d8+10);  
[*huge greataxe & gore*]:huge greataxe +16 melee (2d8+11/21-20); gore +11 melee (1d8+3);  
[*+1 shortbow, composite (+2str)*]:+1 shortbow, composite (+2str) +11/+6/+1 ranged (1d6+3/x3);  
[*+1 halberd*]:+1 halberd +17/+12/+7 melee (1d10+8/x3);  

Proficiencies: light armor, medium armor, all simple weapons, all martial weapons.

Skills : Appraise -1 (-1 Intel ); Balance -4 (+1 Dex, -5 Other ); Bluff +0; Climb +2 (+7 Str, -5 Other ); Concentration +2 (+2 Con ); Diplomacy +0; Disguise +0; Escape Artist -4 (+1 Dex, -5 Other ); Forgery -1 (-1 Intel ); Gather Information +0; Heal +3 (+3 Wis ); Hide -4 (+1 Dex, -5 Other ); Intimidate +7 (+2 Ranks, +5 Race ); Jump +11 (+3 Ranks, +7 Str, +4 Race, -3 Other ); Knowledge (general) -1 (-1 Intel ); Listen +8 (+1 Ranks, +3 Wis, +4 Race ); Move Silently -4 (+1 Dex, -5 Other ); Perform ((specify)) +0; Ride +1 (+1 Dex ); Search +7 (+2 Ranks, -1 Intel, +6 Race ); Sense Motive +3 (+3 Wis ); Spot +7 (+3 Wis, +4 Race ); Swim +7 (+7 Str ); Use Rope +1 (+1 Dex ); Survival +4 (+1 Ranks, +3 Wis ); Knowledge (local) -1 (-1 Intel ); Knowledge (architecture and eng) -1 (-1 Intel ); Knowledge (geography) -1 (-1 Intel ); Knowledge (history) -1 (-1 Intel ); Knowledge (nobility and royalty) -1 (-1 Intel ); Disguise (Eberron) +0; Forgery (Eberron) -1 (-1 Intel ); Perform (oratory) +0; Perform (gladiatorial combat) +0; Knowledge (Adventuri ([eberron]) -1 (-1 Intel ); Knowledge (Aerenal) ([eberron]) -1 (-1 Intel ); Knowledge (Blood of  ([eberron]) -1 (-1 Intel ); Knowledge (Changelin ([eberron]) -1 (-1 Intel ); Knowledge (Church of ([eberron]) -1 (-1 Intel ); Knowledge (The Dark  ([eberron]) -1 (-1 Intel ); Perform (act) +0; Perform (comedy) +0; Perform (dance) +0; Perform (keyboard instruments) +0; Perform (percussion instrumen) +0; Perform (string instruments) +0; Perform (wind instruments) +0; Perform (sing) +0; Perform (harp) +0.

Feats: Ambidexterity, Armor Proficiency: light, Armor Proficiency: medium, Blind-Fight, Great Fortitude, Martial Weapon Proficiency: All, Power Attack, Shield Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency: All, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting, Great Sunder, Great Roar, Greater Powerful Charge, Stamp 40'

Racial Abilities: Simple Weapon Proficiency, Skills, Natural Cunning, Powerful Charge, Special Qualities, Scent 30 ft. , Keen Senses (+4).. Immune to maze Spells

Quote from: ggroy;366258Wonder how many 4E DMs will ban the hybrid classes, shortly after 4E PHB3 is released.

Wonder how breakable a minotaur ranger/barbarian hybrid class can be made, with a twin strike at-will and barbarian rage.

Half-Orcs make much better dual weapon Rangers/Barbarians.

But anyway, the thing that people forget about hybrid classes is that class dependent benefits (such as the Rogue's sneak attack) only work with powers from THAT class. In the case of a ranger/barbarian hybrid their powers powers don't actually interact with eachother, so there aren't a lot of opportunities for uber-cheesing characters.

On the whole, hybrid classes are much weaker.

That said, in case of optimized damage stacking, the best thing to do for a dual weapon combatant would be to play a half-orc hybrid ranger/fighter with a rogue MC, with twin strike as an at will (doesn't matter what the second one is, you'll probably never use it) then at 11th level take the pit fighter paragon path (has an ability that let's you add WIS modifier to any melee attack)

So by this point you are making 2 attacks and adding 1[W]+enhancement Bonus (magic weapon)+item bonus (iron armbands of power or quick hit bracers)+WIS modifer+feat bonus+2d8 (hunter's quarry)+3d6 sneak attack)+1[W] (half-orc racial ability) to one of them. On an at-will.

This becomes even sicker when an encounter or daily exploit is used, because those allow for multiple attacks AND allows you to add your STR mod (probably your highest stat) as well.

THAT is how you make a broken hybrid character.

But I personally hate crap like this, so I won't be playing this anytime soon, unless I feel like really pissing off an RPGA DM.

Edit: Hmmm...or you could take the marked scourge feat and the ranger's storm warden paragon path...

On Pathfinder/4e Fencesitters!
If we are actually talking about fence sitters it just means they'd play one game as soon as they'd play another, so by definition I don't really see this as having any effect one way or the other.

For ideologists, of course it also couldn't have an effect.

And for regular joes , which make up the bulk of everyone, it's just more options.

We've had Hybrid characters in the Builder for a while, and I think they've been legal in LFR since .. a couple of months ago? But I haven't really seen any in use. My oldest kid built a swordmage/assassin multiclass character he's been wanting to play for a while.

My analysis of the minotaur ranger/barbarian! (the 4e one, not the CR9 3e one)

It looks like a fun character to play, but it isn't overpowered.

First - I disagree that rogue sneak attack can only be used on only rogue powers. But it can only be used with rogue weapons. Which means light blades only (or possibly a mace). I ran into this myself because my main character is a rogue who for a while was carrying a whip. Couldn't sneak attack with it, but it was just cool.

The Twin Strike power itself negates the bonuses on damage that the minotaur would have made with strength. So.. +7/+7 to 1d10+1d6? A 1st level rogue with the backstabber feat can do 1d4+2d8(+ more depending on if the power added strength, dex, charisma.. or some combination) on a sneak attack with a dagger. So the Hybrid character is definitely not overpowered.

 Barbarian Rage is a daily- swift panther rage just gives 3[W] + Strength modifier damage, +2 speed and shift 2 squares as a move for the rest of the encounter. (and cannot be used in conjunction with twin strike). Just one attack, although he can keep the speed boost for the encounter.

These look fine to me.

I wouldn't ban it!

Quote from: Joethelawyer;366251With balance being a big selling point, or so I've heard, what do you think this means for 4e's future evolution?

He's wrong about hybrids, basically. I've seen a couple of them in play and done a couple of designs, and they're really no big deal. WotC playtested 'em in the field for something like 10 months before they were actually released; abuses were pre-nerfed, and I have no reason to think that WotC's aggressive stance on errata won't hold true for hybrids as well.

Example: a non-hybrid healing class gets two heals per encounter, scaling up to three heals per encounter at level 16. A hybrid healing class gets one heal per encounter, and it never scales. Therefore, if you have (say) a cleric/warlord, you'll get the same two heals per encounter at the lower levels, but when you hit level 16 you will be outstripped by a pure cleric.

Quote from: GameDaddy;366268As compared to a Minotaur Barbarian1/Ranger1 using Savage Species with 3e...

I don't see what you're out to prove with your example. You're comparing a 1st-level character from 4e with a 10th-level character from 3.5.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;366414I don't see what you're out to prove with your example. You're comparing a 1st-level character from 4e with a 10th-level character from 3.5.

That is the lowest level possible for that type of character according to the 3.5 rules.  Remember, the minotaur has to have all those stupid "monster levels" in there to play it by the rules (with a separate system for what you get using those "monster" levels that is different than the normal "character levels" rules).

And if you sense some distaste in that paragraph, you'd be right.  I love/loved 3.5, but I didn't love some of the subsystems, and the monster levels is one of those subsystems I didn't like.

Quote from: Mistwell;366430That is the lowest level possible for that type of character according to the 3.5 rules.  Remember, the minotaur has to have all those stupid "monster levels" in there to play it by the rules (with a separate system for what you get using those "monster" levels that is different than the normal "character levels" rules).

And if you sense some distaste in that paragraph, you'd be right.  I love/loved 3.5, but I didn't love some of the subsystems, and the monster levels is one of those subsystems I didn't like.

Well, to be fair, you could use 3.0 Savage Species to create a minotaur "monster-class" starting at 1st level, medium sized..with 1 hit dice. I wrote up a ton of these back when I was into it- I had a ghoul and gargoyle class I kinda loved.

3.5 Level Adjustments were kinda horrible though, because you'd get left in the dust after a while. Even the fairly tame ones like tieflings or drow (+1LA) would leave you an entire spell-level behind.