I don't need some old game or nostalgia to think 4e sucks.

I don't compare 4e to games I don't play.

I compare it to the one I do, 3e, and on that measure it's bollocks.

Quote from: Imperator;365189Thing is, I am afraid that at this point of the story anything WotC does will be met with hostility on the part of the people who doesn't like 4e. Which is quite sad, IMO, as I feel that they are comparing an actual product with a recollection of, not only another product (the former Red Box Set) but with the recollection of their youth when they met the game. And of course, memory is not objective so it's going to be the comparison between two products based only on the merits of each one, but a comparison between an actual product and an idealized remembrance.

You do have a point to some extent. I'm sure it's true of some people.

I'm saying to "some extent", because I think it's also a bit easy to put everyone who dislikes 4e for reason X or Y in the same basket and then claim "hey, that's just nostalgia, and you can't win against nostalgia".

You're forgetting that some of us here are still playing the games we're supposed to be nostalgic about. Point is, it's not nostalgia, it's not "idealized memory" or "rememberance", since we're playing these games right now. Jrients, Kellri, T Foster, Me, Stormbringer, Randall, dungeondelver, Akrasia, and the list goes on and on. We're all still using these games.

Quote from: Drohem;365234While I do agree with the sentiment in general, I wouldn't say the question is moot.  Certainly, there is a large excluded middle who can, and will, suppress their nostalgia enough to critically compare both products, once it's released.  Yes, at this point in time, it's all speculation since most people don't actually have both products side-by-side to compare them.

Also, I think that WotC is sending mixed messages with this product.  They have gone to great lengths to tell the public that 4e D&D is not their fathers' or grandfathers' D&D anymore, yet they market a product that uses the exact same cover as the original game.  I would have much preferred that they market this red box concept for 4e D&D completely using the 4e D&D brand art, packaging, and format.

Well, you may be right on this. Definitely is not a clear message.

But I also think that they got the wrong marketing strategy right from the start, as I can see how the more grognardy D&D gamers can feel alienated by 4e. I think that they should have focused their marketing strategy in a back to the roots move, where the main and most important aspects of D&D could be celebrated. A shame.

Quote from: Benoist;365248I'm saying to "some extent", because I think it's also a bit easy to put everyone who dislikes 4e for reason X or Y in the same basket and then claim "hey, that's just nostalgia, and you can't win against nostalgia".

You're forgetting that some of us here are still playing the games we're supposed to be nostalgic about. Point is, it's not nostalgia, it's not "idealized memory" or "rememberance", since we're playing these games right now. Jrients, Kellri, T Foster, Me, Stormbringer, Randall, dungeondelver, Akrasia, and the list goes on and on. We're all still using these games.

I was not talking about nostalgia, but about the natural and human resistance to change. Also, we simply cannot avoid look at our experiences at a younger age through a misty glas. That's how memory works, simply put. Attributing your disliking of D&D 4e to nostalgia is stupid, but thing is, resistence to change happens everywhere. It happens with music bands, film directors, writers, whoever you may think of. People tend to prefer the earlier products, as they carry the impact of the firts experience. And that's something very hard to recreate or to get better.

4e has not destroyed this hobby. This hobby is thriving like never before. We live a true Golden Age. The hobby we knew 20 years ago is dead, but 4e didn't kill it. It was time Simply time.

Quote from: Imperator;365273I think that they should have focused their marketing strategy in a back to the roots move, where the main and most important aspects of D&D could be celebrated. A shame.

Quote from: Imperator;365273The hobby we knew 20 years ago is dead, but 4e didn't kill it. It was time Simply time.

I agree, on both accounts.

Quote from: Imperator;365273I was not talking about nostalgia, but about the natural and human resistance to change. Also, we simply cannot avoid look at our experiences at a younger age through a misty glas. That's how memory works, simply put. Attributing your disliking of D&D 4e to nostalgia is stupid, but thing is, resistence to change happens everywhere. It happens with music bands, film directors, writers, whoever you may think of. People tend to prefer the earlier products, as they carry the impact of the firts experience. And that's something very hard to recreate or to get better.

I like Geist: The Sin Eaters and Wraith: The Oblivion.
I like The Masquerade and The Requiem.
Promethean: The Created is the most original of the new WoD games, and in part for this reason, I think it's the best of the series.

And that's not like I didn't have a good time with the Old World of Darkness games or couldn't anymore. I could and would.

I like OD&D
I like AD&D
I dislike 2nd ed AD&D
I like 3rd ed D&D
I dislike 4e D&D

I like Warhammer FRP
I like Warhammer FRP 2

I prefer the second edition of the Hawkmoon RPG to the first Edition.
My favorite edition of In Nomine Satanis/Magna Veritas is the 3rd.

I like Mongoose RuneQuest, but prefer RuneQuest III.
HeroWars and HeroQuest are an interesting, new, different spin on Glorantha, too.

So really, I don't think I suffer from "resistance to change".

I don't have anything against "change". I have something against "crap".

Quote from: Benoist;365248I'm saying to "some extent", because I think it's also a bit easy to put everyone who dislikes 4e for reason X or Y in the same basket and then claim "hey, that's just nostalgia, and you can't win against nostalgia".

Quite true. And of course, the opposite holds true -- some people find it way too easy to put everyone who likes 4e in a similar bucket. The shill bucket comes to mind, but there are others.

Quote from: Thanlis;365297Quite true. And of course, the opposite holds true -- some people find it way too easy to put everyone who likes 4e in a similar bucket. The shill bucket comes to mind, but there are others.

Only when that bucket applies.  When every mention of 4e brings out the uncritical hoard to sing the unrelenting praises, the label starts to make sense.

Quote from: StormBringer;365300Only when that bucket applies.  When every mention of 4e brings out the uncritical hoard to sing the unrelenting praises, the label starts to make sense.

Couldn't be because they enjoy it. No, not possible. It's solely to vex you.

Quote from: Thanlis;365297Quite true. And of course, the opposite holds true -- some people find it way too easy to put everyone who likes 4e in a similar bucket. The shill bucket comes to mind, but there are others.

Correct. I agree.

Quote from: StormBringer;365300Only when that bucket applies.  When every mention of OD&D brings out the uncritical hoard to sing the unrelenting praises, the label starts to make sense.

There, I fixed it for you.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;365305Couldn't be because they enjoy it. No, not possible. It's solely to vex you.

Which is exactly what I posted in my response.  Thankfully, you were able to cut through my cunning encryption that most people would read as saying "When the shoe fits, wear it".

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;365315There, I fixed it for you.

You know that is both incorrect, and unamusing.

Even the merest mention of the inability to comprehend that 4e just might not be the greatest thing since sliced bread brings everyone out of the woodwork to rally 'round the flag in defence.

Quote from: StormBringer;365338You know that is both incorrect, and unamusing.

Even the merest mention of the inability to comprehend that 4e just might not be the greatest thing since sliced bread brings everyone out of the woodwork to rally 'round the flag in defence.

We've had a number of people register on this site for that very purpose.

I think that sort of behavior goes a bit beyond casual enjoyment.

Quote from: StormBringer;365338Even the merest mention of the inability to comprehend that 4e just might not be the greatest thing since sliced bread brings everyone out of the woodwork to rally 'round the flag in defence.

Any problems or dislikes you have with 4e are all you.  You're doing it wrong.  Maybe if you stopped doing it wrong, you'd realize how great it is.  Anything you perceive to be a problem with the system is just you because you were predisposed to hate it.

Quote from: Peregrin;365359Any problems or dislikes you have with 4e are all you.  You're doing it wrong.  Maybe if you stopped doing it wrong, you'd realize how great it is.  Anything you perceive to be a problem with the system is just you because you were predisposed to hate it.

I'm sorry, but that remark doesn't make any sense to me.
Are you saying that 4e is *the* perfect game system?
Are you saying that anyone not liking 4e is playing badwrongfun?
Are you saying that any problem anyone has with any system is because of the person, and never the game system?

... I'm sorry. I'm genuinely curious as to what you mean by this.