Quote from: jdurall;344526You do realize that, other than the quote from the rulebook, I haven't written a single word about SWSE?

So the real disconnect is that you felt like you could jump on me for a perceived attitude, when in fact you had no idea what you were talking about?

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;344530...I don't own the game nor have I ever played the game. However, any game that has a Scout class that is not essential in being a Scout has failed in that matter.

So true.

Quote from: pawsplay;344532So the real disconnect is that you felt like you could jump on me for a perceived attitude, when in fact you had no idea what you were talking about?

Not exactly.

I was using your very specific example (the Scout class in SWSE is inferior to others) to illustrate a larger and more general point (game designers don't always design NPCs with the goal of optimization).

You continued to argue against a specific point that I wasn't making.

You did so with vigor, and I enjoy seeing someone making an emphatic point... but I just wanted to remind you that you were out there tilting at windmills.

I find the attitude of, "But it's not optimal..." to be bizarre.  I mean, if I'm trying to make "the best " ever, then I can understand.  But what if my N/PC is not "the best" at whatever it is s/he does?  What if I have a particular concept in mind that is not a candidate for the Guiness Book of World Records?  There's something wrong with that?  It seems like some people are implying that there is one correct way to build a given N/PC, and then all the wrong ones.  That's really just laughable.

On the original point of sub-optimal NPCs in modules, either see above, or the author simply doesn't know what they're doing, or even made a mistake.

Any game where creating an optimal build is a supported goal is a game I am not particularly interested in. Not my style, not my game. I leave it to those who care about such things. Creating such a character in a game where it is possible, but not supported in the system, is not my thing either. It doesn't bother me that others have this as a source of fun, but it's not my source of fun.

-clash

The published characters in Golden Heroes weren't. They included a group of characters all made from the same superpowers/backgrounds just to show how many different ideas can stem from the same source, given the game's random chargen.

Beyond that the NPC's from the published adventures/'bestiary' were all pretty good.

In playing an optimized character, I am playing my character - I'm playing someone who wants to live!

Adventurers will learn things they believe will help them survive and succeed. They're not going to go pick up a few levels of Wizard or whatever if they don't think it'll help with that.

"Oh, well, I'm just following my muse..." Does not happen when your life is a daily fight for survival.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;344639In playing an optimized character, I am playing my character - I'm playing someone who wants to live!

Adventurers will learn things they believe will help them survive and succeed. They're not going to go pick up a few levels of Wizard or whatever if they don't think it'll help with that.

"Oh, well, I'm just following my muse..." Does not happen when your life is a daily fight for survival.

This does not equate to "characters will plan their entire lives out in advance because to do otherwise would be sub-optimal." Characters focused on survival will many times take a choice that is sub-optimal in the long term if it is better in the short term.

-clash

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;344639In playing an optimized character, I am playing my character - I'm playing someone who wants to live!

Adventurers will learn things they believe will help them survive and succeed. They're not going to go pick up a few levels of Wizard or whatever if they don't think it'll help with that.

"Oh, well, I'm just following my muse..." Does not happen when your life is a daily fight for survival.

Yeah, that's fascinating, except your survival is not at stake.  It's a game.  Your character's survival might be at stake, but doing something you (as a player) find fun or interesting with your character might simply be more enjoyable for you (again, as a player).  Perhaps an adventurer will pick up a few levels of wizard not because it will make them more survivable, but because it won't make them particularly less survivable, but will make survival more fun.

Moreover, what does "survival" in any given game or campaign require?  Might be diplomacy, swordplay, electrical engineering, magic, or the use of weapons of mass destruction.  Or it might require all of those things in varying amounts at different times.  To say that there is only one optimal solution in a complex environment like that doesn't really jive for me.  Maybe I want the world's greatest nuclear physicist, or maybe I want a fairly good nuclear physicist who can also sing, dance and make small talk.

Quote from: Bobloblah;344652Yeah, that's fascinating, except your survival is not at stake.  It's a game.  Your character's survival might be at stake, but doing something you (as a player) find fun or interesting with your character might simply be more enjoyable for you (again, as a player).  Perhaps an adventurer will pick up a few levels of wizard not because it will make them more survivable, but because it won't make them particularly less survivable, but will make survival more fun.

Moreover, what does "survival" in any given game or campaign require?  Might be diplomacy, swordplay, electrical engineering, magic, or the use of weapons of mass destruction.  Or it might require all of those things in varying amounts at different times.  To say that there is only one optimal solution in a complex environment like that doesn't really jive for me.  Maybe I want the world's greatest nuclear physicist, or maybe I want a fairly good nuclear physicist who can also sing, dance and make small talk.

As for the first part - You seem to have missed that parts of this are IC.
That's because RPGs *aren't* about simulating your character...They're about playing a game, in which a character's personality is just another part of having fun.

Also, I never specified optimized as what you took it for. That last is why, generally, "successful" people are good at both politics and business - And not as good at their supposed "Core skill".


Ironically, those who optimize their *Characters* for success, mechanically, are, IMO, following the path a successful *Person* takes in real life - And yes, that does mean planning out, sometimes years in advance. X years of college/university, this and that as major and minor degrees, hiring at X, Y or Z company/job type for N years, A position in T years...

...Complete with "After consideration, this is better, I'll do it" whenever they find something better in a splatbook (Or job/business oportunity)


Meanwhile, those who have fun "Following their muse" are following the same sort of path the same sort of people take in real life - "Oh, hey, this looks good - I'll go do it for a while".


So, to finish, playing a survival-focused character (Adventurer), the highest-level (Taking the fictional world as real) will be optimized, because that *Is* what their character would do. And, optimizing for some kind of success - In this case, high levels - Tends to lead to that kind of success.

And yes, I know some people "Luck in" to what they want. But relying on luck...That's relying on chance. Gambling. And the house always wins, in the end.
And, some people "Luck out" - But consistently is rare.


Refutations?

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;344677Refutations?

You WIN! You DID it! You plotted your character out from birth, and STUCK TO IT no matter it made no sense at the time! ! Here's all the gold you win! And the cool cars! And the yacht! and the hookers and blow!

Now, are you going to Disney World?

-clash

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;344677As for the first part - You seem to have missed that parts of this are IC.
That's because RPGs *aren't* about simulating your character...They're about playing a game, in which a character's personality is just another part of having fun.

Also, I never specified optimized as what you took it for. That last is why, generally, "successful" people are good at both politics and business - And not as good at their supposed "Core skill".


Ironically, those who optimize their *Characters* for success, mechanically, are, IMO, following the path a successful *Person* takes in real life - And yes, that does mean planning out, sometimes years in advance. X years of college/university, this and that as major and minor degrees, hiring at X, Y or Z company/job type for N years, A position in T years...

...Complete with "After consideration, this is better, I'll do it" whenever they find something better in a splatbook (Or job/business oportunity)


Meanwhile, those who have fun "Following their muse" are following the same sort of path the same sort of people take in real life - "Oh, hey, this looks good - I'll go do it for a while".


So, to finish, playing a survival-focused character (Adventurer), the highest-level (Taking the fictional world as real) will be optimized, because that *Is* what their character would do. And, optimizing for some kind of success - In this case, high levels - Tends to lead to that kind of success.

And yes, I know some people "Luck in" to what they want. But relying on luck...That's relying on chance. Gambling. And the house always wins, in the end.
And, some people "Luck out" - But consistently is rare.


Refutations?

The problem is that not everything in a splat book is normal in a game world. Highly optimized and successful people usually are the best at an obvious rout to success that everyone knows about. Optimization in an RPG usually requires bizarre combinations that no real person would have. One level ranger, three fighter, one holy liberator is cute, but it is also stupid. It isn't honest to plan that from the beginning.

If the most optimized 20th level character in D&D was Fighter 20, or Paladin 20, I'd agree with you, but it is definitely, definitely not.

Quote from: flyingmice;344683You WIN! You DID it! You plotted your character out from birth, and STUCK TO IT no matter it made no sense at the time! ! Here's all the gold you win! And the cool cars! And the yacht! and the hookers and blow!

Now, are you going to Disney World?

-clash

You missed the part where I subtly indicated that doing so would not be fun.
"...playing a game..."

Quote from: Cranewings;344686The problem is that not everything in a splat book is normal in a game world. Highly optimized and successful people usually are the best at an obvious rout to success that everyone knows about. Optimization in an RPG usually requires bizarre combinations that no real person would have. One level ranger, three fighter, one holy liberator is cute, but it is also stupid. It isn't honest to plan that from the beginning.

If the most optimized 20th level character in D&D was Fighter 20, or Paladin 20, I'd agree with you, but it is definitely, definitely not.

Right. Research Scientist/Politician/Businessman is a perfectly sane, logical and obvious combination.

Because this is the world we live in.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;344701You missed the part where I subtly indicated that doing so would not be fun.
"...playing a game..."

Right. Research Scientist/Politician/Businessman is a perfectly sane, logical and obvious combination.

Because this is the world we live in.

Yeah, and I can make that character in dungeons and dragons by giving him anywhere from one to four levels of Expert. Make it 20 levels of Expert and you still have something more sane than this:

Character is an Anthropomorphic Squid (2 HD +1 LA = ECL3)
Feral (+1LA)
Half Dragon (+3LA)
Mineral Warrior (+1LA)
Base creature is ECL 8
Barbarian1/Warshaper2/War Hulk 6/Primeval1/Berserk1/Frenzied Berserker1

Base Strength of 18 + 8 (squid) + 4 (feral) + 8 (half dragon) + 2 (mineral warrior)
Total of base creature: 40
Barbarian: 4
Primeval (Dire Ape): 12 (yes, I know Dire Boar would be stronger... just watch)
Berserk: 6
Frenzied Berserker: 6
Warshaper: 4
War Hulk: 6
Feats: Leadership, Primeval Wildshape, Reckless Rage (plus PrC prereqs)

Primeval Wildshape: +2
Reckless Rage: +2

I like this one too:

Presenting: Chuck, the Fastest Metal Man in the Universe

Warforged Cleric 1/Crusader 1/ Swordsage 4/ Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/ Suel Arcanamach 3/ Spellcarved Soldier 1

Order of Class Levels, Abilities and Feats:

1 Cleric 1 Turn Undead, Domains(Planning, Undeath)—Extend Spell, Extra Turning, Feat—Persistent Spell
2 Crusader 1, Devoted Spirit Maneuver + Devoted Spirit Stance
3 Swordsage 1 Stance-Step of the Wind, Maneuvers: Mighty Throw, Counter Charge, (Sudden Leap, 1 desert wind + 1 other: shadow hand and stone dragon for RKV synergy) Feat—Iron Will
4 Swordsage 2—Stance: Flame's Blessing, Maneuver: Baffling Defense
5 Swordsage 3—Maneuver: Devastating Throw
6 RKV1 Feat--Leadership
7 RKV2
8 RKV3
9 RKV4 Feat—Combat Casting
10 RKV5
11 Suel Arcanamach 1
12 Suel Arcanamach 2, Feat—Silver Tracery
13 RKV6-Stance: Aura of Chaos
14 RKV7-Divine Impetus
15 RKV8 Feat—DMM: Persistant Spell
16 RKV9
17 RKV10
18 Suel Arcanamach 3 Extended Spellstrength, Feat—Arcane Mastery
19 Spellcarved Soldier 1—Rune of Extension: Footsteps of the Divine
20 Swordsage 4—Maneuvers: Tornado Throw! Misc->Ring of Fire