Quote from: RPGPundit;337015So, they long-missing Scarlet Empress is coming back, in an act of the Metaplot the WW people keep swearing never happens in Exalted ( I continue to contend that they never got rid of metaplot, just turned it sideways, as it were).

I think you're absolutely right about the metaplot.

As for the "death rattle" and "desperate cash grab" quips, I disagree.  I'm pretty sure they had this planned long ago as a possible product.  Jon Chambers was talking about this as early as Origins 2008 at a (sparsely attended) Scion/Exalted Q&A session.

There's no doubt that Exalted (and White Wolf's other games) probably aren't doing so hot commercially, but they are all extremely niche and, in Exalted's case, suffer from horrible editing and many bad design decisions.  That being said, there are a number of highly anticipated books coming out for Exalted soon, not just the Empress book.  I won't be buying them, but still, the vocal fanbase sounds excited.

Quote from: Aporon;337088There's no doubt that Exalted (and White Wolf's other games) probably aren't doing so hot commercially, but they are all extremely niche and, in Exalted's case, suffer from horrible editing and many bad design decisions.  That being said, there are a number of highly anticipated books coming out for Exalted soon, not just the Empress book.  I won't be buying them, but still, the vocal fanbase sounds excited.

Hell, I'm not even a fan and I'm interested. It's the first Exalted product I've been excited about since . . . well, since the 1e corebook was released. That excitement didn't last long, and I don't get the books anymore, but I do peruse the occasional Exalted thread to keep up with some of the metaplot thingies, as they do still interest me. Just not a $40 a pop, only to discard the system anyway, amount of interest.

I want to know the various directions the Exalted writers themselves imagine taking the whole Scarlet Empress thing. Me, I'm still banking money of the SE manipulating herself into a position to actually supplant the ED's fetich soul. I think she's playing the ED and he doesn't even know it.

Quote from: Aos;337061Like all really good trolls, the pundit mixes statements that he actually means with silly posts engineered to create controversy.

It seems to me that "swine" actually means "games Pundit doesn't like", but   I like giving Pundit a chance to explain himself.   Especially since Exalted is their least angsty game.  

I can see the "game as art" pretentiousness with Vampire or Promethean, but Exalted?    I haven't read much of 2e, but 1e was just kitchen sink anime power fantasy turned to 11.

And WTF are you doing making coherent sentences in a post?  

Aos, get thee back to quips and non-sequitors.

Quote from: RPGPundit;337071There seems to be some pretty solid evidence that WW's share of the market has been on a death spiral for many years now, to the point that they are no longer in any meaningful way the "number 2"; they are now about as significant as any of the other "second tier companies".

Every bookstore that I have seen with RPGs has D&D and WW.  Often plenty of WW lines.  Its always a crapshoot to see if any other RPGs are present.  Usually Shadowrun and Dark Heresy and Rifts Ultimate if any others at all are on the shelf.

WW is easily #2.   But I agree that the financial distance between #1 and #2 has increased.

Quote from: RPGPundit;337071It tried to pretend it wasn't rampant powergaming, so that WW-swine could powergame while still turning up their noses at D&D.

Show me one group of non-D&D players who doesn't turn up their noses to D&D.   Hell, it's been a 30 year tradition for various D&D edition players to turn their noses to whatever is the current edition.

I remember the bitches in the 80s who argued that AD&D 1e wasn't real D&D because it wasn't their coveted white / brown box.

Dinosaur vanilla skyscraper.

Quote from: LeSquide;337070They've said that future books won't include this as having happened...

Then what's the point? (Aside from selling books.) It's like one of those hokey time travel Star Trek episodes that you don't even need to watch because nothing changes once the episode is over. If it's not a game changer, what's the point?

I also don't like the Choose-Your-Own-Truth approach to source material. Pick something and go with it - I can change it myself if I don't like it.

Seanchai

Quote from: RPGPundit;337071[WW] tried to pretend [Exalted] wasn't rampant powergaming...

I realise I'm betraying Aos here, but I have to call this out as one of the most absurd assertions you've ever made.  Dude, Exalted has always been "powergaming" in all-caps.

!i!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;337177I realise I'm betraying Aos here, but I have to call this out as one of the most absurd assertions you've ever made.  Dude, Exalted has always been "powergaming" in all-caps.

!i!

Don't get me wrong, man.
I have no interest in killing the pundits mojo. I've learned that you can post "He is trolling you!" 1000 times and it never fucks things up for the troll. Moths don't get fire safety.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;337177I realise I'm betraying Aos here, but I have to call this out as one of the most absurd assertions you've ever made.  Dude, Exalted has always been "powergaming" in all-caps.

!i!

But its "ART" in all caps as well. They're all about "Upgrade your game", etc etc. Its like those shows on Bravo full of blurry fucking and partial nudity but done "tastefully" to try to let intellectuals feel its ok to watch Porn, while still looking down on the "unwashed masses" getting off on actual good hardcore full-frontal fucking in videos not pretending to be something other than what they are.

Exalted is so that the WW-Swine can have their cake and eat it too. Still pretend to be sophisticated, while blowing up cities; by being able to claim on RPG.net, as I once literally saw someone claim "Exalted isn't about blowing up cities! Its about dealing with the THEMES that come from having the power to blow up cities". There isn't a fucking rolleye smiley big enough.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;337203Exalted is so that the WW-Swine can have their cake and eat it too.

No shit, dude.  Was this a big mystery to you?  They made a game to suit their crowd.  WotC made a game to suit theirs.  Hell, you made a game to suit yours.  Here's your entree to make your next statement of the painfully obvious.

But I really have to hammer this nail down farther:  From the very outset, Exalted has been all about powergaming.  It was like they created an explosive, murderous playground for all of the powergamers who bloated the fandom of the World o' Darkness line.  You can get itchy over the advertising campaigns and individual fans on RPG.net all you want and go on about how they hurt your precious sensibilities, but you can't make this shit stick to the wall.

!i!

Quote from: Seanchai;337176Then what's the point? (Aside from selling books.) It's like one of those hokey time travel Star Trek episodes that you don't even need to watch because nothing changes once the episode is over. If it's not a game changer, what's the point?

I also don't like the Choose-Your-Own-Truth approach to source material. Pick something and go with it - I can change it myself if I don't like it.

Seanchai

Its meant so the GM can include it if he likes, perhaps as a way to cap off a long running game.  If you don't want to include it, or have your own ideas about what happened to the Scarlet Empress, future books won't mess you up.  They did some similar stuff with mega-adventures in 1e.

I have my own pet theory about the Empress.  The way I see it, the important thing is that she was able to enter the Imperial Manse, activate the Sword of Creation, and nuke the shit out of everything.  The reason for that is that her Motivation was 'Save creation'.  That's the requirement for entering the Imperial Manse and activating the superweapon.

However, after 800 years of rule, her Motivation changed to 'Preserve the Realm'.  Not quite the same thing.  When the Solars first started appearing and the Deathlords came out with the Abyssals, she tried after many centuries to enter the Manse again.  She was not able to do so.  Her entire rule is based on the power of the Imperial Manse, if she tells anyone it will be civil war for sure.

The Brozne faction whisked her away so they can attempt to fix this.  So where is the Empress?  Meditating in Yu-Shan, under the protection of the Sidereals.  She will have to change her motivation to Saving Creation if she's ever to stop the threats to it...or pass the rule to someone else who is worthy.

Dunno if I'm really going with that, but I like it .

Quote from: RPGPundit;337203But its "ART" in all caps as well. They're all about "Upgrade your game", etc etc. Its like those shows on Bravo full of blurry fucking and partial nudity but done "tastefully" to try to let intellectuals feel its ok to watch Porn, while still looking down on the "unwashed masses" getting off on actual good hardcore full-frontal fucking in videos not pretending to be something other than what they are.

Exalted is so that the WW-Swine can have their cake and eat it too. Still pretend to be sophisticated, while blowing up cities; by being able to claim on RPG.net, as I once literally saw someone claim "Exalted isn't about blowing up cities! Its about dealing with the THEMES that come from having the power to blow up cities". There isn't a fucking rolleye smiley big enough.

RPGPundit

There's nothing wrong with dealing with themes.  We do it all the time in our games, because its fun.  I like movies and books that deal with themes.

Exalted is very much about what you do with power.  It is also about letting loose your inner 14 year old and just being irrepressibly awesome .

Old school D&D for instance has themes of exploration, the unknown, and the triumph of the civilized over the savage.  All games have themes.  I can't really imagine one without a theme.

Quote from: Maddman;337219There's nothing wrong with dealing with themes.  

Yeah, but blurry porn is fucked up.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;337218No shit, dude.  Was this a big mystery to you?  They made a game to suit their crowd.  WotC made a game to suit theirs.  Hell, you made a game to suit yours.  Here's your entree to make your next statement of the painfully obvious.

Yes but their fans suck and he represents the silent majority of alpha bump endowed male gamers.

Regards,
David R

Being a knuckle dragging, slack-jawed, beef-witted D&D powergamer alpha male jock myself, I always thought the idea of Exalted (energetic, high-flying, cinematic anime cheese-filled fantasy superheroics) was right up my alley.

It might have even supplanted D&D as my favorite game, if it wasn't for the dice pool mechanic.

Oh god, how I hate dice pool mechanics.

I remember someone asking White Wolf if they would ever do a D20 conversion of Exalted, to which one of their execs replied:

"No...because Exalted is it's own entity and it doesn't NEED a D20 conversion"

Dude...yes it does.

Exalted's mechanics are not worth saving at all, therefore if they don't fuck it up (and given their track record, chances are good that it will happen), a d20 conversion (particularly a SE d20 conversion) could very well be a boon to the longevity of the game.

Quote from: Maddman;337219They did some similar stuff with mega-adventures in 1e.

What are those like? The only thing I have of first edition is the core rulebook.

Seanchai