Quote from: Gordon Horne;336788Possibly, however your personal experiences also mean not a lot. You want something closer to the late 70s? A random sample:
Printings in 1965, 1967, 1968, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1978, 1979 (25th Anniversary Collection), 1984, 1985
Lord of the Rings calendars for 1973 to 1979
Guide to the Names in The Lord of the Rings (1975)
The Hobbit TV animated film (1977)
A scathing communist review from 1977
Understanding Tolkien and The Lord of the Rings (1977)
1978 Ralph Bakshi film
1979 National Public Radio adaptation
1980 Rankin/Bass film
1981 BBC Radio adaptation

Not bad for an obscure book your friends hadn't read.

My friends had-the literary groups I belonged to hadn't.

I don't know what point you're trying to make; mine is that IME, at the time of the review in question, LotR did not have the cultural position it had today, or even after the initial animation film in 1980. It certainly was not common in wargamer circles, which is what the review was written for.

Obviously, your experiences of this time period are different from mine.

Or you weren't an adult in this period, and are just dredgeing up references of varying applicability from a free on-line source.

Just FYI-about half your reference post-date the review.

Quote from: XantherFRODO LIVES! Man. Don't you remeber the graffitti? LOTR was pretty big in the hippy crowd I recall, Led Zepplin's references to it certainly made it better known amongst the same.

Bumper stickers-graffitti wasn't common where I grew up. But sure, then as now you had your genre enthusists. The hippy scene had pretty well moved on by the time this review came out.

Quote from: Gordon Horne;336794Wow. Can you explain it to me? What Led Zepplin was singing about.

I was listening to Yes: Relayer the other day. I think i was just a pretentious poser when i claimed to understand it as a teen.

Love Relayer.

It was the line "gollum and the evil one snuck up and slipped away with her"

I had no idea what gollum meant so figured they must be saying, "gone with the evil one who snuck up and slipped away with her"

I still to this day don't know if this line is an allegory for something else.

That was a fun read.
I knew of D&D long before I ever got a chance to play... probably because of my addiction to miniatures and comics.
Dungeon was the game I was really wanting to play, because of the box cover... but I had no clue what the relation was between it and D&D.

Quote from: OneTinSoldier;336798My friends had-the literary groups I belonged to hadn't.

I don't know what point you're trying to make; mine is that IME, at the time of the review in question, LotR did not have the cultural position it had today, or even after the initial animation film in 1980. It certainly was not common in wargamer circles, which is what the review was written for.

My sole point is that your original statement

Quote from: OneTinSoldier;336766Remember that when this was written LotR was a obscure set of books; the core idea of RPGs (a group of PCs of incompatable backgrounds operateing together towards a vague or implausible goal for reasons which are seldom explained) was not widely understood outside the hobby.

is bullshit.

Quote from: OneTinSoldier;336798Obviously, your experiences of this time period are different from mine.

Or you weren't an adult in this period, and are just dredgeing up references of varying applicability from a free on-line source.

Just FYI-about half your reference post-date the review.

Bumper stickers-graffitti wasn't common where I grew up. But sure, then as now you had your genre enthusists. The hippy scene had pretty well moved on by the time this review came out.

What do my experiences matter? My personal experiences are just as inconsequential as yours. They mean nothing in the question of whether The Lord of the Rings was an obscure set of books. For the record, i read The Lord of the Rings in the summer of '78 or'79 when i was 10 or 11. I found a well thumbed copy on my cousin's bookshelf and read it over a weekend. I later knew many people, most older than me, who had read it. I think at least three of the teachers in my elementary school had read it. I remember because they were surprised a kid my age had read it. For my Grade 7 graduation prize i was given Manguel's & Guadalupi's Dictionary of Imaginary Places.

But my personal experiences are as irrelevant as yours. We are both insignificant motes. Other than "this guy i knew had never heard of it," what are your criteria for declaring The Lord of the Rings an obscure set of books?

1966 is too early. 1981 is too late. What date is acceptable to you? 1974, the presumed review date? (That's not the late '70s, by the way, and the hippies were still around; waning, but still around.) By my estimation, a book that is reprinted nearly every year for a decade around the review date is not obscure. There were at least three editions published in 1974—a single-volume hardback, a three-volume hardback, and a three-volume paperback. Both three-volume editions had multiple printings. The 1973 single-volume paperback had at least 13 printings. Publishers do not put out yearly calendars—and sell enough to justify a calendar next year—for obscure books. Several separate companies do not invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in separate radio and film adaptations of obscure books. The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings were on English Lit reading lists. Look, Hobbit and Lord of the Rings wargames from 1975 and 1977. One of which did well enough to be reissued by another company with better production values. The Lord of the Rings is generally credited with kick starting the modern fantasy genre. It is also generally credited with strongly influencing—both on its own and with the healthy fantasy genre it lead—the development of RPGs in general and Chainmail and Dungeons and Dragons in particular.

I think any of that trumps "this guy i knew had never heard of it".

Even accepting your implied claim that knowledge of The Lord of the Rings was limited to genre enthusiasts, that's a helluva larger group than OneTinSoldier, his friends, fellow wargamers, and some literary geeks he knew.

That's a fascinating bit o' history right there.

I wonder if the review writer had second thoughts about the game a few years later.

QuoteIn general, the concept and imagination involved is stunning. However, much more work, refinement, and especially regulation and simplification is necessary before the game is manageable.

I wonder if Ol' Arnold is playing DnD4E these days.

Quote from: Gordon Horne;336825I wonder if Ol' Arnold is playing DnD4E these days.

Nah, he's still playing Napoleonics and telling everyone who'll listen that nothing's gonna come of that rpg stuff.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgamedesigner/693

Arnold Hendrick is a game designer who has spent over 20 years designing computer games and over 10 years designing wargames mostly for  SPI. He also ran the company Heritage Miniatures in the 1980s.

And here is his current blog.

QuoteWho is this  Arnold Hendrick guy?

I am a 25-year veteran of the computer game industry with design and/or producer credits on over 20 titles. While game design is my love, game production became my business. I understand and sympathize with the design dreamer in all of us. However, when it comes to business, it is necessary that professionalism, rationality and logic triumph.

My academic training is in history. I view events, people and products through an historical lens. I like to analyze and see patterns, yet remain sensitive to the “quirks of fate” (i.e., dumb luck). A lifelong gamer, I played wargames and RPGs before computer games existed. I play games to this very day, generally MMOs (I pride myself on a playing knowledge of most major and random minor MMOGs) and the new “social networking” games.

I am detailed-oriented and a compulsive organizer. This has regularly moved me from my original love, game design, into game production. In the past, like many inexperienced “executives” in the industry, I caused and endured a lot of crunch time. After some particularly painful projects in the mid 90s I began to seek “a better way.” I learned CMM at Carnegie-Mellon and the PMBOK from PMI. I studied project management and got my PMP certification. I have tried many processes, from structured waterfalls with UML to the current darling, Scrum (I am also a CSM – Certified Scrum Master).

From a resume standpoint, I began in computer games as a “designer” for Coleco in 1983, then in 1985 became the first non-programming game designer at MicroProse, where I stayed 10 years. This is generally considered the “glory” years of MicroProse, where luminaries such as Sid Meier created Civilization (the game, of course). After a few more years at a successor company (Interactive Magic, later iEN), I moved from solo console/PC games into MMOs. I joined Kesmai in 1998 as producer of their Air Warrior product line. When EA closed Kesmai in 2001, I became part of its struggling successor company Castle Hill Studios. Most recently from 2005-2009 I detoured into “serious” MMOs and virtual worlds at Forterra Systems. Government contracts and platform-oriented development provided entirely new insights into software project management.

Wide experience in game development is very useful. Much can be learned by experiencing the entire development cycle of initial concept to running the live team of an aging product. It is enlightening to see games go from initial design to gold and beyond. I have iterated on project management practices many, many times. I have gone through over two dozen game projects from start to finish, and another dozen or two that faltered along the way. Unlike many others, I still love working on games.

As of June 2009 I’m between jobs and “available.” Know someone who needs a veteran game producer?

Current RW Location:  San Francisco Bay Area

Contact Email: ajhendrick@aol.com, with a cc suggested to arnoldjhendrick@gmail.com.

Quote from: Gordon Horne;336788Possibly, however your personal experiences also mean not a lot. You want something closer to the late 70s? A random sample:
Printings in 1965, 1967, 1968, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1978, 1979 (25th Anniversary Collection), 1984, 1985
Lord of the Rings calendars for 1973 to 1979
Guide to the Names in The Lord of the Rings (1975)
The Hobbit TV animated film (1977)
A scathing communist review from 1977
Understanding Tolkien and The Lord of the Rings (1977)
1978 Ralph Bakshi film
1979 National Public Radio adaptation
1980 Rankin/Bass film
1981 BBC Radio adaptation

Not bad for an obscure book your friends hadn't read.

Poor guy makes one daft comment ...
My mum made me read the hobbit when I was 8 (77). She had read the LoR about 20 times and had a 3 volume hardback edition from '61 and she was an economics lecturer not a hippy.  I only have one of those books now but its the RotK with the full appendicies. I have to admit I didn't read LotR until after the Bakshi movie. Obscure .....

Hendrick was one of the authors of the RPG Swordbearer.  Swordbearer is an awsome game, IMO.  It had the great idea of removing the bean counting from fantasy gaming by creating a Social Status system where a player didn't have to track coins.  Also, the magic system was unique and innovative.  Characters were broadly classed by their Activity Sphere, but were defined by the skill system.  There were some cool races as well.  I always loved the idea of harvesting the organs of slain foes to power magic use, LOL.

Quote from: Mistwell;336832Arnold Hendrick is a game designer who has spent over 20 years designing computer games and over 10 years designing wargames mostly for  SPI. He also ran the company Heritage Miniatures in the 1980s.

Well. Not 4e, but close enough.

Quote from: Drohem;336878Hendrick was one of the authors of the RPG Swordbearer.  Swordbearer is an awsome game, IMO.  It had the great idea of removing the bean counting from fantasy gaming by creating a Social Status system where a player didn't have to track coins.  Also, the magic system was unique and innovative.  Characters were broadly classed by their Activity Sphere, but were defined by the skill system.  There were some cool races as well.  I always loved the idea of harvesting the organs of slain foes to power magic use, LOL.

Really? Huh. Same name. Well he certainly wrapped his mind around RPGs. Swordbearer was innovative in many ways. It didn't reduce the burden on the GM, but the combat system certainly reflects refinement and regulation over OD&D. Simplification i'm not sure about; clarification, yes.

Hey Benoist, who is that guy in your avatar?

I didn't know the French had a Colonel Sanders.

Quote from: PaladinCA;336898Hey Benoist, who is that guy in your avatar?

I didn't know the French had a Colonel Sanders.

LOL! This is Igor Urnst, the Commissar of Ptolus.
What with the Ptolus Retard/Ptard and all...

Well, the guy made some sensible points He was wrong in some things but well, that's the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.