new WotC fansite policy

RPGObjects_chuck · August 13, 2009, 01:28:12 PM

Quote from: StormBringer;320049Conversely, how many websites out there have all kinds of OGL material today? Not many in the first year of 3.0, naturally, while people were getting a feel for the licensing. Since then, however, immense volume of material that is available far exceeds anything WotC could have produced. All of it at no cost to them, and most of it pointing directly back to D&D. The few oddments that aren't D&D still point to it indirectly, as they are d20 products.

In effect, WotC is saying 'we aren't having any of that nonsense like the way the OGL boosted 3.x for ten years through the efforts of fan creations'. It's not only bad business, it's rather insulting to the fans who enjoy the product so much, they are willing to spend their free time creating products so other people can enjoy it as much as they do.

Right, but this decision really only affects:

A) People working in HTML. If you are working in print or PDF you fall under the GSL, which has WAY FEWER restrictions.

B) People who take WOTC's art and trademarked material for their web work.

That is what makes this different from TSR and why the sky is not falling.

If you work in HTML (and are unable or unwilling to port those materials to free PDFs for some reason) AND if you take Wizards' offered art assets, THEN this applies to you.

This is not a "we have trademarked Armor Class, if you say it anywhere on the web we will send you a C&D" moment.

StormBringer · August 13, 2009, 02:12:34 PM

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuck;320371A) People working in HTML. If you are working in print or PDF you fall under the GSL, which has WAY FEWER restrictions.

Section 3 of the GSL specifically mentions pdfs by name:

Quote3. Licensed Products. The license granted in Section 4 is for use solely in connection with Licensee's publication, distribution, and sale of roleplaying games and roleplaying game supplements that contain the Licensed Materials and are published in a hardcover or soft-cover printed book format or in a single-download electronic book format (such as .pdf), and accessory products to the foregoing roleplaying games and roleplaying game supplements that are not otherwise listed as excluded in Section 5.5 ("Licensed Products").

Emphasis mine.

By all appearances, the rest of the GSL grants you permission to... write a novel, maybe? I didn't read over all the restrictions just now, but it is pretty limiting. For example:

Quote5.5 Licensed Products. This License applies solely to Licensed Products as defined in Section 3 and to the specified uses set forth in Section 4. For the avoidance of doubt, and by way of
example only, no Licensed Product will (a) include web sites, interactive products, miniatures, or character creators; (b) describe a process for creating a character or applying the effects of experience to a character;
(c) use the terms "Core Rules" or "Core Rulebook" or variations thereof on its cover or title, in self-reference or in advertising or marketing thereof; (d) refer to any artwork, imagery or other depiction contained in a
Core Rulebook; (e) reprint any material contained in a Core Rulebook except as explicitly provided in Section 4; or (f) be incorporated into another product that is itself not a Licensed Product (such as, by way
of example only, a magazine or book compilation).

(c), (d) and (e) are pretty standard, but (f)? Since the Citadel Monthly isn't a Licensed Product, I will not be able to accept submissions for 4e material (not that it is a danger, it's a vintage games magazine after all).

It appears there are a few rather subtle intertwined loopholes and switchbacks to where WotC can pull your license over almost any pdf, unless you are extremely careful about how you present it.

Mistwell · August 13, 2009, 02:45:17 PM

Quote from: StormBringer;320302No, champ, the real point is, all those definitions point to 'up to and including every instance'.

No, they do not, and I already responded to that point. Which, you again, cut out of your response.

The remainder of your reply is useless given that fact.

And I can see you're not going to be adult about it. So, here, how's this: I meant lets talk about the context I gave, regardless of how you took it. If that was not clear at the time, it is clear now. M'kay?

RPGObjects_chuck · August 13, 2009, 03:34:51 PM

Quote from: StormBringer;320377Section 3 of the GSL specifically mentions pdfs by name:

Quote3. Licensed Products. The license granted in Section 4 is for use solely in connection with Licensee’s publication, distribution, and sale of roleplaying games and roleplaying game supplements that contain the Licensed Materials and are published in a hardcover or soft-cover printed book format or in a single-download electronic book format (such as .pdf), and accessory products to the foregoing roleplaying games and roleplaying game supplements that are not otherwise listed as excluded in Section 5.5 (“Licensed Products”).

Yes, it mentions them as a product that is permissable under the license.

You need to read it more carefully. That section is discussing what is allowed, and mentioning PDFs by name.

They disallow websites, magazines and character generators.

But they explicitly allow books and PDFs.

So this new website policy still allows PDFs, they are covered under the GSL, and allowed.

It just doesn't change that you can't offer game materials on a website (unless its in PDF form).

StormBringer · August 13, 2009, 05:11:51 PM

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuck;320405Yes, it mentions them as a product that is permissable under the license.

You need to read it more carefully. That section is discussing what is allowed, and mentioning PDFs by name.

They disallow websites, magazines and character generators.

But they explicitly allow books and PDFs.

So this new website policy still allows PDFs, they are covered under the GSL, and allowed.

It just doesn't change that you can't offer game materials on a website (unless its in PDF form).

Ah, I see the disconnect, I wasn't saying they don't allow pdfs. I was referring to your statement that the GSL is more permissive. Certainly, more permissive than the Web Site Kit, but not terribly permissive in and of itself. The content of the pdf is still pretty limited, but I agree that you can put the pdf on your website.

RPGObjects_chuck · August 13, 2009, 05:52:41 PM

Quote from: StormBringer;320439Ah, I see the disconnect, I wasn't saying they don't allow pdfs. I was referring to your statement that the GSL is more permissive. Certainly, more permissive than the Web Site Kit, but not terribly permissive in and of itself. The content of the pdf is still pretty limited, but I agree that you can put the pdf on your website.

Oh yeah, I wasn't trying to argue that the GSL is great.

In fact I think it's pretty terrible and draws a lot of really weird lines in its attempts to paint open development of 4e into a very limited corner.

I mean, I can make a book but not a magazine? Really?

StormBringer · August 13, 2009, 05:55:50 PM

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuck;320449Oh yeah, I wasn't trying to argue that the GSL is great.

In fact I think it's pretty terrible and draws a lot of really weird lines in its attempts to paint open development of 4e into a very limited corner.

I mean, I can make a book but not a magazine? Really?

Definitely. It seems to read that you can make a book, but you can't include any of it in a magazine, unless the magazine exclusively contains Licensed Material, I guess...? So, no mixing with general content, or no mixing with OGL, or something?

It brings the term 'Byzantine' to dizzying new heights.

Diavilo · August 15, 2009, 06:16:37 AM

This, the PDFs being pulled and the subscription approach are all part of the approach of other large media companies. Players/ consumers can have a community but it has to be the company's community.

It's a bit like Sony's Free Realms model, where you don't have to have a full subscription but classes, items and quests are limited until you do. The last thing they want is for players to build your own items, classes, areas or quests, because it competes with their content. Sims 3 is mainly the same.