Quote from: StormBringer;319724Except that 4e isn't doing it to emulate a genre.  People like to point at Grey Mouser or John McClane as what they want to play, completely forgetting that they were well on their way at the start of their stories.  John McClane in particular wasn't fresh out of the academy in Die Hard.

If you want to twist the explanation (until it screams), it could be said that is the first level in their particular story, but calling any of those cinematic characters '1st level' is really stretching the premise.

I agree that they're not trying to emulate a particular genre. But I don't understand your point. My argument was that 4E was not designed to emulate real life.

Quote from: StormBringer;319724If you want to twist the explanation (until it screams), it could be said that is the first level in their particular story, but calling any of those cinematic characters '1st level' is really stretching the premise.

i.e. there is a reduced sense of accomplishment in 4e, simply because instead of having to work to become awesome as in prior editions, you "work" to become awesomer that you start out.

Nothing wrong with that, I guess.

Quote from: Werekoala;319740i.e. there is a reduced sense of accomplishment in 4e, simply because instead of having to work to become awesome as in prior editions, you "work" to become awesomer that you start out.

The reason for why I insist on using "Special Snowflake" is that "being awesome from the start" is just a symptom of the real problem, and that problem is that the people what subscribe to this being a good thing are also the folks that can and will make PCs will no consideration whatsoever of the milieu from which the PC arises- which, quite frankly, is going to be strongly tribalist in function if not in form, and that means little or no tolerance for said Snowflakes.

Being a hero requires that there be a crucible-like process of character forging, one that can't be had by crunching numbers, and can only happen by playing a character through that early phase typical of the earlier editions.  (Indeed, as I see it, that's when people playing the game are most likely to think and act as if the fictional world was real; at higher levels, this tends to evaporate.)  That character has to make a choice, to embrace or reject his culture--the very thing that gives him his identity and organizes all that he knows of existence--and then deal with the consequences of that decision.  The Special Snowflake fraud undermines that by insulating players from that necessity.

Steven Pressfield's "War of Art" puts the process into mundane (by comparison) terms, because it's the same process that makes people into artists worthy of the term.  What the Special Snowflake crowd wants is the results without the work, and those that already did the work will tell you that (a) there's no getting around the work and (b) there's no end to the work- each creation/campaign/plot starts the process anew.

D&D4 is a hell of an awesome boardgame, but as an RPG it's lacking because its design resists this process by (ironically, you might say) taking the real character out of role-playing.

Quote from: Fifth Element;319731I agree that they're not trying to emulate a particular genre. But I don't understand your point. My argument was that 4E was not designed to emulate real life.

I'm clearly not stating it is trying emulate real life.  People point to various action heroes, ignoring the fact that we are seeing their life at a mid-point, or at least at a point where they are often more than competent.  There was always that option before, too; start out at 3rd level, or 5th or 10th.  The option to start out at the beginning is missing now, erasing an entire style of play in preference to another.

I can't think of many other situations where removing a popular, valid  option is an objective 'improvement'.  It would be the same as removing the 'play' button from an iPod to go straight through a playlist, replacing it with random only functionality.  Steve Jobs can go on and on at Macworld about how much better it is, because being able to play through a list was complete garbage, a mistake of engineering.  I am certain many Apple fans would agree, and happily play lists in no particular order without complaint.  Yet, people who like setting up a list and playing through it would have a valid complaint.

Quote from: Werekoala;319740i.e. there is a reduced sense of accomplishment in 4e, simply because instead of having to work to become awesome as in prior editions, you "work" to become awesomer that you start out.

Nothing wrong with that, I guess.

No, and again, I don't care how people do things at their own table.  But when someone takes the time and effort to sign up for a public discussion board, compose a post or thread, then checks back to follow up on that thread, it is hardly a matter that exists solely at their table at that point.

If they are looking for an echo chamber to discuss the coolness of Game X, most of them have their own forums for such.  If someone wants to propose that 'old games suck and new games are the best', they ought to be ready to discuss that point of view.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;319743The reason for why I insist on using "Special Snowflake" is that "being awesome from the start" is just a symptom of the real problem, and that problem is that the people what subscribe to this being a good thing are also the folks that can and will make PCs will no consideration whatsoever of the milieu from which the PC arises- which, quite frankly, is going to be strongly tribalist in function if not in form, and that means little or no tolerance for said Snowflakes.

Being a hero requires that there be a crucible-like process of character forging, one that can't be had by crunching numbers, and can only happen by playing a character through that early phase typical of the earlier editions.  (Indeed, as I see it, that's when people playing the game are most likely to think and act as if the fictional world was real; at higher levels, this tends to evaporate.)  That character has to make a choice, to embrace or reject his culture--the very thing that gives him his identity and organizes all that he knows of existence--and then deal with the consequences of that decision.  The Special Snowflake fraud undermines that by insulating players from that necessity.

Steven Pressfield's "War of Art" puts the process into mundane (by comparison) terms, because it's the same process that makes people into artists worthy of the term.  What the Special Snowflake crowd wants is the results without the work, and those that already did the work will tell you that (a) there's no getting around the work and (b) there's no end to the work- each creation/campaign/plot starts the process anew.

D&D4 is a hell of an awesome boardgame, but as an RPG it's lacking because its design resists this process by (ironically, you might say) taking the real character out of role-playing.

Can you trim this down a bit so I can fit it in my sig? kthnx.

Quote from: StormBringer;319745Can you trim this down a bit so I can fit it in my sig? kthnx.

Let me dig through the aforementioned Pressfield book for a quote that fits.

Edit: Try this one:

Quote from: Steven Pressfield, "War of Art" p. 42, WRT Resistance & Being a StarGrandiose fantasies are a symptom of Resistance. They're the sign of an amateur. The professional has learned that success, like happiness, comes as a by-product of work. The professional concentrates on the work and allows rewards to come or not come, whatever they like.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;319390The irony is that the enduring versions of D&D and Traveller are not about being heroes at all.  Indeed, the more the Special Snowflake paradigm seizes up the brand the more craptastic the game and the community around it becomes.

I heartily endorse this product or service!

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;319747Let me dig through the aforementioned Pressfield book for a quote that fits.

On an unrelated note, I think I have to order that book.

Quote from: Fifth Element;3197204E takes a lot of shit because you can't play a 'dirt farmer' anymore. That is, even characters at 1st level can do heroic things. 4E is just more blatantly heroic than previous editions of the game, especially at low levels. That's my only point, and note that I'm not saying or implying that it's a good or bad thing. It just is.

The whole deal with old dnd was taking a pos dirt farmer and turning him into something great. In my opinion, they threw out the half of the game that I liked.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;319743The reason for why I insist on using "Special Snowflake" is that "being awesome from the start" is just a symptom of the real problem, and that problem is that the people what subscribe to this being a good thing are also the folks that can and will make PCs will no consideration whatsoever of the milieu from which the PC arises- which, quite frankly, is going to be strongly tribalist in function if not in form, and that means little or no tolerance for said Snowflakes.

Being a hero requires that there be a crucible-like process of character forging, one that can't be had by crunching numbers, and can only happen by playing a character through that early phase typical of the earlier editions.  (Indeed, as I see it, that's when people playing the game are most likely to think and act as if the fictional world was real; at higher levels, this tends to evaporate.)  That character has to make a choice, to embrace or reject his culture--the very thing that gives him his identity and organizes all that he knows of existence--and then deal with the consequences of that decision.  The Special Snowflake fraud undermines that by insulating players from that necessity.

Steven Pressfield's "War of Art" puts the process into mundane (by comparison) terms, because it's the same process that makes people into artists worthy of the term.  What the Special Snowflake crowd wants is the results without the work, and those that already did the work will tell you that (a) there's no getting around the work and (b) there's no end to the work- each creation/campaign/plot starts the process anew.

D&D4 is a hell of an awesome boardgame, but as an RPG it's lacking because its design resists this process by (ironically, you might say) taking the real character out of role-playing.

wow, awesome

I am constantly amazed by you guys' ability to have the same discussion somewhere on the page at all times with the same players even when you lack any opposition.

Quote from: counterspin;319844I am constantly amazed by you guys' ability to have the same discussion somewhere on the page at all times with the same players even when you lack any opposition.

Well, if someone would present some kind of valid argument, we wouldn't be so bored.

So I can have a friendly discussion with you and Hairfoot?  Why on earth would anyone who has been on this forum any length of time fucking bother?

Quote from: counterspin;319890Why on earth would anyone who has been on this forum any length of time fucking bother?

Because here you can say what you think without getting banned for a bullshit reason.

Quote from: counterspin;319890So I can have a friendly discussion with you and Hairfoot?  Why on earth would anyone who has been on this forum any length of time fucking bother?

You can have any kind of discussion you want.  The kind you tend to choose is the 'poorly supported, ill-thought, coherence deprived screed' and flip out when people don't agree unequivocally.

Expressing a preference isn't a discussion, but this isn't an 'expressing your preference' forum.  This is a discussion forum, hence, most people will assume that if you raise your hand, you are initiating a discussion.  Even if you are wholly transparent in your expression of a preference only, there will be people who do not share that preference; again, being a discussion board, they will then go on to express their preference.  Unsurprisingly, they won't all agree with yours.  The only way to really prevent anyone from interfering with your expression is to start your own blog and turn the comments off.

Statements such as "I like the way powers work in 4e" are an expression of preference.  You are more than free to ignore any commentary it generates and let it stand on its own.  Statements like "4e powers are better than Vancian magic" is an assertion.  You are also more than free to let that stand on its own, but you are almost guaranteed to generate discussion.  If you are only interested in a discussion when people agree with you, you may be more comfortable with the aforementioned solution of starting a blog.

On the other hand, posting things in the manner of "I am constantly amazed by you guys' ability to have the same discussion somewhere on the page at all times with the same players even when you lack any opposition." and following it up with "So I can have a friendly discussion with you and Hairfoot? Why on earth would anyone who has been on this forum any length of time fucking bother?" simply marks you as a whiny douchebag.

Here's another example:  I picked up the Empire of the Petal Throne pdf from RPGnow a couple of days ago.  I will likely start talking about it over on the Citadel for two main reasons.  a) It's my board, and it is dedicated to vintage games, and b) theRPGsite doesn't have a pack of EPT fans wandering around to talk with.  In both cases, it's a matter of knowing your audience.  I am not here to proselytize EPT, as even among the old guard, it's something of an oddity that gets less spotlight than current retro-clones.  Hence, were I to spend endless hours talking about EPT and then getting pissy when people didn't agree with me, I would have earned the appellation "douchebag".

So present reasonable arguments that allow for the idea that you may not be correct about some of them, and understand that that some game design ideas may not mesh as well as you assume they do despite your enjoyment, and ultimately, you don't need a consensus of opinion regarding your own preferences.