Quote from: counterspin;318430Well Jeff, when the characters were working together to write a play, what were the players doing then?

Wondering where their Craft, Profession, and Perform skills had disappeared to in 4E.

Quote from: counterspin;318430There was no dice rolling.  

Only because the skills that required dice rolling to complete the rules mechanic were missing.

Quote from: counterspin;318430Everyone was in character.  Isn't there a word for that?  Yeah, there is, the word is roleplaying.

Which is why they could have been playing checkers for all the roleplaying support they had with the rules of 4E.

Quote from: counterspin;318430Anyone who advances the "4e isn't roleplaying argument" is full of shit.

That's OK. I'm advancing the "4E does not support roleplaying to my satisfaction" arguement.

So roleplaying only counts if it is backed up by skills?  Thank god we can make up new definitions for English words whenever we want.  It makes arguing so much easier!

All my players have played other systems, no one missed the skills.

Quote from: Werekoala;318427This. Instead of 20 opponents, 15 of which are minions, how about 5 opponents of slightler tougher fiber?

Yes, you can certainly do this. But maybe you don't always want to do this. Minions give you options. If you like'em, use'em. If you don't like'em, don't use'em. And stop whining about them.

It's not so much the whining as the repetition.

Quote from: counterspin;318437So roleplaying only counts if it is backed up by skills?  Thank god we can make up new definitions for English words whenever we want.  It makes arguing so much easier!

All my players have played other systems, no one missed the skills.

Then why are you playing D&D and not out enjoying your role-playing with a Community Theatre Group?

Quote from: Werekoala;318427This. Instead of 20 opponents, 15 of which are minions, how about 5 opponents of slightler tougher fiber?

Because people like variety.  Sometimes there's 1 opponent, sometimes 50.  

Rules for simplified opponents makes big battles possible, but not necessary.  4e isn't the only game to do this.  Savage Worlds handles large battles well.

It isn't a fundamental problem with mook rules that is the failure of minions in 4E, it is how mook rules were taken to an illogical extreme. Having one-hit, one-kill monsters can make sense at lower levels but it becomes harder to justify in a level based game when the levels of the characters increase. When skeletons, kobolds, goblins, and orcs pop like balloons when they are hit, it doesn't strain the credibility/internal consistancy of the game. When you have minion Vampires or Liches, it does strain to snapping people's belief suspenders.

If being a minion in 4E meant that the creature would have a number of hit points equal to the encounter level, some kind of sliding scale, it might work better.

The problem is that 4E already has a system for equating party level to encounter level, and the Minions are an exception to that system that feels like an add-on. I think it is a clumsy add-on that does not scale well to higher level encounters (the aforementioned minion Vampires and Liches), but if you like that - more power to you.

Quote from: Fifth Element;318440Yes, you can certainly do this. But maybe you don't always want to do this. Minions give you options. If you like'em, use'em. If you don't like'em, don't use'em. And stop whining about them.

Hey, hey, calm down Francis. I've played some 4e and read the core books, and I don't really have a huge problem with mooks, I'm just wondering why they were added if not to add a "Yearrghh, lookit me!"-ness that wasn't there before. If I wanted a mass battle in my adventures, the 1/4 and 1/2 HD critters in 3e usually did just fine. BUT - having 10 of them against a 1st level party in 3e is sure slaughter. Having 10 of them against a 1st level party in 4e is a cakewalk. Just sayin'.

Quote from: jeff37923;318433I'm advancing the "4E does not support roleplaying to my satisfaction" arguement.

Out of curiosity, which games do support it to your satisfaction?

Quote from: StormBringer;318394The fact that you deliberately ignore the connection is equally confusing.

Because there's no connection. I could always play D&D in god mode. The inclusion of actual minion rules doesn't change that fact. I mean, just how old is the term munchkin anyway?

These arguments are so ridiculous. I can't believe anyone is actually wasting time on the back and forth with this stuff.

I'm finding it quite entertaining actually. Its always a riot seeing the members of the orthodox church of 4e getting their knickers in a knot when someone points out their game of choice is far from perfect regardless of how much they might worship at its altar.

Quote from: Werekoala;318427This. Instead of 20 opponents, 15 of which are minions, how about 5 opponents of slightler tougher fiber?

Exactly.  I don't think we even knew what a 'minion' was back in the day.  Once we got to a certain level, goblins and orcs were no longer a concern.  We simply didn't encounter them as small raiding parties any more, only as whole tribes or clans, and no matter how high your level, the law of averages would eventually bring you down with 200+ orcs.

I agree that minions feel like an add-on and not really like a part of the level system. Also I suggest that minions get a Saving Throw against auto damage.

Still minions have an important role in the game. They make you appreciate wizards. At least they make my current character really appreciate that preposterous halfling sorcerer. Sure, my character can take out any heavy hitter of his level and outdamages any other character in the party. He just can't do so with a bunch of minions around. Those things are dangerous for him.

Quote from: counterspin;318437So roleplaying only counts if it is backed up by skills?  Thank god we can make up new definitions for English words whenever we want.

A system can be said to support roleplaying if the ruleset actually contains information for such. A system lacking support for roleplaying, either by providing a framework or making it as mechanically complicated as combats, cannot be said to be supportive of roleplaying.

Not being supportive of RP is different from the idea that the system is incapable of allowing RP. In theory, roleplaying can be overlaid onto any system, even those that were not intended to handle it; hence why Monopoly, chess, or checkers get brought up in this argument. These are games that were not designed with roleplaying in mind, and the rulesets have nothing to support the roleplay, but you can still roleplay while playing the game.

The argument is that this is what is going on with 4e. It is not that one cannot roleplay; it is that, when you do, you are doing so outside the system, because the framework it provides is sufficient only for combat and dungeon-crawling scenarios.