It's funny how we hate the idea of minions in 4e but we gleefully accept extras/cannon fodder etc in James Bond, SW or numerous other games.

I think its just a mind set thing. In D&D you have levels as you advance in levels the creatures you fight also advance in levels this combat even and balanced.

In the other games you don't have levels. An entry level agent in a Spy game doesn't have less hit points than James Bond and his Walther  PPK doesn't do 4 tiems as much damage. He just hits more often and gets hit less.

I don't think the problem is with 'the kolbolds in tatty armour with spears' or the 'city guard armed with pikes' a 10th level D&D character could always plow through those and let's be honest tracking a goblin that had 5 hp and was hit for 3 is a bit tedious in a toe to toe fight where there are 50 goblins. The problem is with the Orge Blugeoner who in theory should have 234 HP but now has 1...

So I think the idea of a minion is alien to D&D because the structure of the game is built in such as way that they are logically inconsistent. If you want the Demon to have 1 hp underlings give him a tribe of goblins as followers, but in D&D terms a goblis in unable to harm a 15th level hero because he can't hit him and for some reason a 3 foot spear weilded by a goblin only does 1/10 of the damamge of the same spear if weilded by a Goblin blugeoneeer (or whatever).

Obviously the solution is to remove levels, hp and increasing damage super powers from D&D and add dodge and parry instead

Me, if i did run a 4e game (soooo unlikely) I would like to have a group of 10th level characters and kill all of them with a tribe of 1st level goblins minions... that would teach them not to take goblins seriously

Quote from: jeff37923;318147I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I have to wonder if a deal was or was not struck between WoTC and these guys to act as a "public face" of 4E.

I'm pretty sure money changed hands.  They've done podcasts.  They've had D&D developers personally teaching them how to play.  This is a marketing campaign.

Quote from: jibbajibba;318293Obviously the solution is to remove levels, hp and increasing damage super powers from D&D and add dodge and parry instead

Ugh.  If choreographed, micro-managed combat was fun, we'd all be playing Palladium games!
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Quote from: Hairfoot;318295Ugh.  If choreographed, micro-managed combat was fun, we'd all be playing Palladium games!
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Palladium's actually fairly abstracted... Declare target, roll to strike, targets gets to dodge, parry, or roll with it, mark damage. And the Hit on 5+ was pretty brutal last I ran it (ca 2000).

If you want wargamey combat, GURPS, HeroSystem, AD&D 2E PO C&T...

Quote from: mhensley;318294I'm pretty sure money changed hands.  They've done podcasts.  They've had D&D developers personally teaching them how to play.  This is a marketing campaign.

As an aside, I listened to that podcast and they managed to both make the game seem really boring and make themselves seem really annoying. If money did change hands, and if I was WotC, I'd want it back.

Quote from: aramis;318296targets gets to dodge, parry, or roll with it

My point exactly. Any system which allows the combatant to leisurely choose whether to dodge, parry, or roll screams, "game designer has watched lots of movies but has absolutely no idea what combat is".
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Quote from: Hairfoot;318300My point exactly. Any system which allows the combatant to leisurely choose whether to dodge, parry, or roll screams, "game designer has watched lots of movies but has absolutely no idea what combat is".
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As oppossed to a system where they get to say so its a trebuchet it only does 3d10 and I have 80 hp who gives a shit

Quote from: Hairfoot;318300My point exactly. Any system which allows the combatant to leisurely choose whether to dodge, parry, or roll screams, "game designer has watched lots of movies but has absolutely no idea what combat is".
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If you thing Palladium's micro-managed... the you have a very skewed view and/or limited exposure...

Movement is loosely covered; left mostly to the GM. No detailed facing rules. No hit locatuins rules for people.

Check out GURPS 3R with full rules in force. Or anything by Tri-Tac, Leading Edge, or ICE. Or Chaosium. Or Mekton (any edition).

Heck, even the rather generally considered as light WFRP 1E is 10x more managed than PFRPG, TMNT, or Robotech.

Quote from: jibbajibba;318301As oppossed to a system where they get to say so its a trebuchet it only does 3d10 and I have 80 hp who gives a shit

Indeed!  But you'll have to concede that melee combat is far more frequent than trebuchet vs super-PC combat.

Quote from: aramis;318302If you thing Palladium's micro-managed... the you have a very skewed view and/or limited exposure...

Did I say Palladium was the most or the only  micro-managed system?
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Quote from: Hairfoot;318305Indeed!  But you'll have to concede that melee combat is far more frequent than trebuchet vs super-PC combat.

But every self respecting 4th level D&D character has 80 hp these days. One of the main drivers for me to hosuerule 2e hit points was a scene where a PC was caught cold by a couple of city guard armed with crossbows.
The PC knew the worst the crossbows could do was scratch him, I knew  and I knew he knew, he still played it like there was a risk and all credit to him for that but I thought to myself ... after 15 years of this I am just going to fix it.

Quote from: jibbajibba;318306But every self respecting 4th level D&D character has 80 hp these days.

It makes sense when trebuchets are level-appropriate encounters of minions interspersed with trebuchet controllers.
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Quote from: Hairfoot;318309It makes sense when trebuchets are level-appropriate encounters of minions interspersed with trebuchet controllers.
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OOh I wonder if you can get minion trbuchets.... might work in a LotR: TRotK uber cgi battle scene with rodeo riding elves and really fucking big elephants

wiktionary's got it all

Minion From Middle French mignon (“‘lover, royal favourite, darling’”).

and I may add that more recently mignon means cute. You guys can make fun of furverts... WotC turned your damn game into Sims Bondage/SM !

Quote from: Sweeney;318267I know the Tyranny of Fun is catchy and all, but it's a made up problem. It assumes a group where people want different experiences out of the game but somehow aren't able to just talk about it like adults, so oh my god someone's oppressed. If that's true then something is bound to fuck the group dynamic anyway.

I have to agree with this. If you're not having fun in your group, regardless of the reason, you should discuss it with your group. No one's forcing you to play a game in a way you don't like.

Back to the OP, I never identify minions to my players. They're often able to figure it out after a few rounds, based on how easily they go down, and their behaviour, but by then the fight's mostly over anway.

Quote from: jibbajibba;318310OOh I wonder if you can get minion trbuchets.... might work in a LotR: TRotK uber cgi battle scene with rodeo riding elves and really fucking big elephants

Don't forget the dwarven morris dancers and hobbit barber-squads.
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