Quote from: David R;301379I don't think it's a good idea to train GMs. Sharing ideas is about the best way to go.

Regards,
David R

Why do you think it is a bad idea? It seems, to me at least, that if a common recurring problem with RPGs is the GM not being adequite enough to facilitate the fun for a game, then any attempt to improve on this would be good.

Quote from: joewolz;301272Well, I suppose I trained my current GM.  In my group, we always talk about GMing and how to do it better.  We switch GMing duties between the half dozen or so of us, and so it's necessary that if someone wants to GM, they better be good at it.

Do you think that this is the best approach? It seems to be the answer for small groups of friends who know each other and gather on a regular basis - but can the same approach be applied to training GMs for convention games?

Good players need to train amatuer GMs.

Of course, this would require giving feedback...Something *I* know I should do and don't.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;301395Good players need to train amatuer GMs.

The last few times we tried this, we got TPKs ending the campaign.

Training a GM by giving feedback in play is like improving someone's sexual technique during sex. You can do it, but you have to be very tactful about it, or the activity comes to a sudden and disappointing end.

I believe most advice on the subject suggests giving advice tactfully after the game session.

Quote from: jeff37923;301391Why do you think it is a bad idea? It seems, to me at least, that if a common recurring problem with RPGs is the GM not being adequite enough to facilitate the fun for a game, then any attempt to improve on this would be good.

Okay all this is just IMO and IME. See, I think that it's everybodys responsibility to facilitate fun for a game around the gaming table, just that the role of the GM has it's own set of responsibilites. Sharing ideas about GMing works best because a GM can pick and choose what he thinks would work best for his group. Also these ideas should be shared with the rest of the group. I don't think there's a general standard that can be applied to GMing.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: jeff37923;301393Do you think that this is the best approach? It seems to be the answer for small groups of friends who know each other and gather on a regular basis - but can the same approach be applied to training GMs for convention games?

Well, I pretty much only game with friends.  It's our excuse to bullshit and have a few beers.  Now, we do take playing the game seriously, because we can go out and have a few beers or throw a party if we don't want to play.  

I think the method I've used is pretty good, but may be restricted as you say.  

Personally, I'd love to have a GM Con (so to speak), almost like a professional conference, where there may not be a lot of gaming, but a lot of lectures/presentations.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;301408I believe most advice on the subject suggests giving advice tactfully after the game session.

Exactly.  Never during a game.  

Quote from: David R;301409I don't think there's a general standard that can be applied to GMing.

I disagree.  There are some great tips and tricks, as well as standards that CAN be applied.  But without going into pseudo-intellectual bullshit, or taking the game too seriously, those standards can never be codified without schism.  I mean, look at the Forgey crap: Ron Edwards himself talks a lot about GMing...

Quote from: joewolz;301414I disagree.  There are some great tips and tricks, as well as standards that CAN be applied.  But without going into pseudo-intellectual bullshit, or taking the game too seriously, those standards can never be codified without schism.  I mean, look at the Forgey crap: Ron Edwards himself talks a lot about GMing...

Well IME, tips and tricks work for some groups but not for all groups. But I'm curious, what standards do you think can be applied ? I mean the only one I can think  off, is that your players think your game is fun.....which is not very helpful.

Regards,
David R

There should be a set of skills that are useful to any RPG (even pagan games that rape narrative control in the moonlight at Walpurgis). A GM who's able to capture an audience when he tells a story probably has an edge. Professional story tellers should have stuff to teach us. Someone who's experienced at handling confrontational people (say helpdesk for instance) might be able to handle criticism of their GM style and adapt to this feedback smoothly. I'm a sucker for a player who acts a character with passion. Who would deny that amateur theater prepares for this ?  
I like Joewolz idea of a GM con where there would be workshops and seminars as well as game tables. It seems to me that many of these skills are similar to stuff that's taught in corporate training program or artistic workshops. I'd bet there are a few competent consultants/trainers, able to create training material adapted to GMs needs, that we could afford in the context of a small con.

Quote from: David R;301409I don't think there's a general standard that can be applied to GMing.

There is a general standard, it's just continually evolving. Or revolving, depending on whom is financially supporting the redesign of that standard.

Some (like myself), choose to remain with an older standard becuase that older standard accomplishes everything I want to achieve, and everything I want the players to experience.

Others prefer to continually fiddle with the rules in order to improve them.

When there's a genuine evolution that does improve play, or time use, by either;

a) Improving the aesthetic experience... or
b) streamlining the mechanics in a way that is beneficial to playing.

I'll be the first to signup for the new edition.

As for training GM's, the very rules encourage each GM to develop a unique style, and approach to the game.  I see this as a good thing, a thing that will keep the game alive and growing. It's not necessary for me to grow with that, however I will always strive to create a place where players will be able to collectively experience an entertaining sci-fi future, or medieval magical fantasy (or historical) past where they can fully participate, perform heroic or noble deeds, and influence, or shape the events that make up the total experience.

If there is any GM's that want to learn how to do that, I'll be glad to host events geared towards that. Already have hosted a few GM roundtables at smaller conventions here on the midwest,and they always go really well. Also they are actually are even a better draw than a good game, and the GM rountable events have been consistently oversubscribed attendance wise.

I have some notes from past events if anyone wants me to post them.

#1 issue is almost invariably the meta-game power struggles that are generated between the Gm and players, or between groups of players, when they come to the gaming table with different ideas about the nature of the social contract concerning that specific game. This always takes time from other GMing issues and is discussed, whether it's on the agenda for the roundtable or not. It is an important issue, as it is one of the defining factors that determines the short and long term growth of tabletop roleplaying as a hobby.

Quote from: GameDaddy;301423I have some notes from past events if anyone wants me to post them.

I'd like to see your notes.

Quote from: boulet;301422I'd bet there are a few competent consultants/trainers, able to create training material adapted to GMs needs, that we could afford in the context of a small con.

Well, I'm a teacher, and I know that my teaching courses helped my GMing...

YES, Its possible to train a new GM.

Problem is we all have to work and regular lives.

I have a very loyal player who is 10 to 15 years older than I am.  I just KNOW she could be a good GM if she gave it a shot.

Almost a decade ago she had to do a group study exerciuse where the idea was to lead group discussion in something several weeks and take notes on the group interaction. I was part of her study group for that . Watching how she led that - I could see the makings of a good GM.

So yeah its possdble - trick is time, motivation, and justification. Folks gotta keep their job, family, and loved one obligation and priorities in the right order as well.

- Ed C.

Quote from: jeff37923;301426I'd like to see your notes.

I was able to dig up a couple of years worth of notes on short notice, There are a couple other sessions backed up cd's archived laying around somewhere obscurely at the moment...

Year 1
The second event, The workshop on fantasy world creation went well too. It was fully booked with eight DM's/GM's showing up. I began by outlining how I had created one of my gaming worlds. I provided a generic handout on ruins generation, with some additional tables on mapping terrain.

After that we did a round table where each guest described how they created their world, or how they planned to create their world. We shared information and tips on additional topics including magic development within fantasy world settings, developing a worlds' history, economic development within a fantasy / sci-fi world. We covered multi-racial social development, and concluded with comments from everybody present on how they handled difficult players in their gaming groups. I did an add-on for Sunday, however, it appeared everyone was committed to other games. The biggest surprise for me as host of this event was the diversity of fantasy and sci-fi roleplaying worlds within such a small group of DM's. This event, or a variation of it, I plan on including in next years con as well.

It was an open discussion so questions were allowed at any point by anyone in attendance. We covered a few additional topics such as structuring history in a FRP or SFRP world, how to introduce economics, world economic development, The effects of different races in roleplaying, and mixing magic and technology as well as the impact of magic technologies on economic and world social development.

We ran out of time and had to close the session at the end of the evening.

Year 2
A Fantasyworld Guild workshop and GM's roundtable for both novice and veteran gamemasters. The main topic concerned creating compelling roleplay, and as host, I chaired this event for the second year in a row in the roundtable manner. In attendance were J.F. and Brian, from last years' workshop, as well as newcomers L.M, R.H, B.W., K.A., and B.D. M.M. was also present this year.

We began with a round where everyone introduced themselves, and described the games they hosted.

We covered a number of techniques for GM's to improve role-playing. I started with examples for everyone, and then we went round the table and everyone willing provided examples from their games so we could all learn different techniques for creating interesting scenarios and play. Some of the topics we covered  included --

Using Cut Scenes to allow play to resume.
Example "A character has an Out-of-Body experience."
Example "Players have a spycam in place to watch the villain, or another important NPC."
Example "Players scry randomly, or scry NPC's"
Example "A vision or dream comes to the character from the gods"
Example "NPC delivers a video to the players"

Shortcuts that allow play pace to resume.
Example: Teleportation to a "Safe House"
Example: Rescuers or reinforcements for the players appearing - LOTR Siege of Gondor
Example: Your ride is leaving - The ship is departing with. or without. the players
Example: A friendly kidnapping to save the players

Little details in the background and that give the game world life
Example: Present players Information  using the other senses including sound, smell, taste, and touch
Example:  Unique Plants & Animals indigent to the game world
Example: Style of vehicles in the game world
Example: Unique Weather
Example: Little events that add nothing to the game play, but that allow the players to capture the unique feeling of your roleplaying world

Other things that move besides NPC's in your gaming world.
Example: Objects that move in a fixed path - Comet, Train, or a trap
Example: Objects that move at a random interval - Earthquake or landslide! The sky.
Example: Objects that move at some pre-determined Interval - Doors, Gates, time locked mechanisms.
Example: Mysterious objects that move at a pre-determined interval
Example: Mysterious objects that move randomly - UFO's, far away balloons, confused riders in the distance moving to and fro.
Trees in the wind
Example: The Lighting - Sunrise, Sunset, Torches, Light generating devices and spells in the night

NPC Storytelling - Providing narrative to highlight a location, character, object, event.
Example - The dying guy on the side of the road describing the monster that waylaid him.
Example - A merchant or traveler telling a tale of his journey to a faraway place - 13th warrior

Blows taken by characters must be credible.
Example - The character is hit with a sword does he/she. does he get up, shake it off and continue combat?

Challenges and Rewards that work time and again
Example - Tournament of Arms - Focus on an events that are replayable or redoable for the players

Action & Narration - The balance between the players getting information, and the players taking action on that information and how to create tension in the game with this. Describe a specific instance of  when you provided narrative for an event and the players interrupted you wanting to take an action.

Having the players do and worry about more than one thing at a time.
Example Sailing & Combat,
Example Driving a Wagon & Fighting,
Example Flying and Fighting.

Allowing the players to continue around deadlocks.
Example: Prepare in advance multiple paths the player may opt to follow
Example: A chamber with a locked door, and an additional passageway leading elsewhere
Example: Using a telephone or radio, or spell to call for help
Example: Describing two possible ways to disarm a trap
Example: Having an NPC intervene & "Save" the players.
Example: Always have a "Way Out" for the players to Roleplay
Example: Allowing the players to define a way out even if it breaks your scenario i.e Winning the Kobayashi Maru

Managing death realistically, managing life as well.
Example: How monsters die.
Example: How people die.
Example: Births of important NPC's and players.
Example: Having an NPC start a conversation with one or more of the players, get interrupted, and die horribly and without finishing the conversation.
Example: Missing, lost, or dead companions.
Example: The death scene in Titanic at the end.

After that a short Intermission, then we went on to hold the Open Q&A where GM's could ask other GM's at the table questions on any subject to help improve creating good roleplaying events.

The question came up for how players would fit into a larger campaign, a war, or great battle, and how the DM would play that out. There were a number of good recommendations at the table including,
Having the players at a key location within the greater battle...
Having the players with a notable leader in the battle...
Providing clues so the players find  key locations during the fight.

There was also a question on how to handle mass combat, and to determine if the players would take casualties in the greater scheme of things. Recommendations to resolve this included;
Having the players do a tactical fight to see the results in the local area they are in...
Rolling to see the casualty rate of the unit the players are with...
Rolling randomly to determine which players were wounded or injured in the campaign.

Another question came up from one of the newer GM's on making rulings and handling difficult players that challenged the DM/GM time and again.  Suggestions ranged from
Taking the reference books away from the players and making them role play, to...
Invoking DM privilege to create house rules on the spot, to...
Limiting abilities, skills, and feats on the part of the player.

This discussion briefly changed into how to deal with difficult players, and our counsel recommendations for the DM/GM was to take the player aside and speak with them privately, and if the unacceptable conduct continued on the part of the troublesome player, to actually ask them to leave. Roleplaying requires a hefty investment of time and energy, and it's simply not fair for the rest of the players to have their experience spoiled by one.

We finished up with well wishes for all GM's and players alike.

One book that really needs to b written is conversations with the worlds greatest GM's.  Not sure how one could go about it, but it really is needed.

I was lucky in the beginning by playing with really good people and sort of learning through osmoses. But also as time goes on you get better as you gain more insight and knowledge in your daily life that effect your gaming. Yet, if shut yourself of from new ideas, you probably never going to advance and get better. I've seen guys playing for 20+ years that still run games exactly the day they began playing and they're still terrible. But hey, I guess it works for them....

 But no matter if you just started or have been playing since  1974 , you need to understand the art of storytelling and improvisation. Doug Lipman's "Improve your Storytelling" is really good  and so much of it can easily apply to GM'ing. Cause when you take away the dice, the rules, the figures,ect. It boils down to captivating your players with your imagination.