QuoteJust to get everything straight for you all. The players had made the failed skill check to precipitate the misjump roll. I openly rolled the misjump result and then declared it fudged when it looked like a TPK.

This is exactly what I would have done as well.  I thought you were 'fudging' the dice roll behind the screen.  Rolling in the open and then making a ruling as a group that you're going to disregard the result from a table in the book that's kinda mental -- that's something else.

My comment about it being dumb was at Benoist and Shaman saying (or what I thought they were saying) that they'd fudge the result if the GM had made it but NOT if the players had made it.

And that's not what I meant. Quoting myself:

Quote from: Benoist;292116Nope, not automatically. The GM could interpret a total failure as something else than a TPK. The party could end up in a completely unknown part of space or right into a pirate fleet, et cetera. It could be an opportunity with the appropriate ruling. It doesn't have to be a TPK, and you don't have to act as if the roll never happened.

See above.

Quote from: RPGPundit;292076I would absolutely agree, except that Luke -

You could, you know, try to be above the behaviour of some Forger moron.

Or at least if you're going to descend to their level, find smaller pictures. Maybe you've got a 24" 4,096x3,024 LCD screen in your boudoir, but most of us haven't, and sidescrolling brings back traumatic memories of playing A Bard's Tale.

I'll clarify a side issue here then. Since I define myself as a Viking Hat GM, should the random die result from either a player or myself result in a fun-ending conclusion (in accordance with my own judgement) then I reserve the right to "play dice with the universe".

Do I let the players fail? Yes, especially if I can weave the player setbacks into a greater victory for the players later (assuming that they have learned from their failures).

Do I let the players be killed if their actions (and not random chance from dice) lead them into a TPK? Yes. Evolution in action.

I believe it is in the entire game group's best interest if the GM does not fudge disasterous results of player choices (even if a TPK happens). Disasterous results of random chance are something that the GM can, and should, work with to not necessarily ensure player success but to allow the players to survive and be challenged by. Poor player choices are handled differently from poor random chance.

Poor random chance needs a rules rewrite.

Quote from: droog;292140Poor random chance needs a rules rewrite.

This. Games shouldn't contain rules / tables that can result in a random TPK.

I'm totally amused that we're on the same page on this one, Stuart.

Dogs and cats living together - mass hysteria!

Quote from: jeff37923;292137I believe it is in the entire game group's best interest if the GM does not fudge disasterous results of player choices (even if a TPK happens). Disasterous results of random chance are something that the GM can, and should, work with to not necessarily ensure player success but to allow the players to survive and be challenged by.

The way I put it is to say, "random is good, random stupid is bad."

Quote from: droog;292140Poor random chance needs a rules rewrite.

Fuck, that would be a lot of rewriting.

Quote from: jeff37923;292150Fuck, that would be a lot of rewriting.

Not in any of the games I play.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;292149The way I put it is to say, "random is good, random stupid is bad."

Curse you and your fancy concise language...  

Quote from: jeff37923;292152Curse you and your fancy concise language...  

It's easy once someone else has come up with the actual ideas.

Quote from: Stuart;292125My comment about it being dumb was at Benoist and Shaman saying (or what I thought they were saying) that they'd fudge the result if the GM had made it but NOT if the players had made it.

That not what I meant.

I like to put critical rolls on the players to make. In my experience, players seem to accept bad results better if they roll them themselves than if the referee rolls them, in the open or otherwise. I've no idea why that is; it's just something I've noted over the years I've played. Maybe they feel like they had a measure of the control over the outcome up until the end. I haven't really tried to analyze the phenomenon, just observed it enough times to think it matters.

As to whether or not I would fudge the roll, probably not. If I rolled a random encounter with a monster that has a save-or-die effect and wins intitiative, I wouldn't fudge the results, either. Bad luck happens; here's a new character sheet, and better luck this time.

Quote from: jeff37923;292121@ Benoist and The Shaman, I could have had a second session TPK due to bad dice rolling on my hands or I could have had a running game. I chose the running game as a win for everyone there.

Does a TPK really mean that your entire game just ends?

The players are still there. You're still there. The game, the dice, the minis . . . all still ready to go.

The only thing needed is new characters, right? Or am I missing something?

I've only had one game actually end with a TPK, and that was because we had a different campaign we wanted to try.

Quote from: The Shaman;292155Does a TPK really mean that your entire game just ends?

I'd say a lot depends on the system being used. Basic D&D or Labyrinth Lord, you can have new PC ready in five minutes.

Quote from: The Shaman;292155The players are still there. You're still there. The game, the dice, the minis . . . all still ready to go.

The only thing needed is new characters, right? Or am I missing something?

d20 Traveller is a special case for PC creation. First, it is d20 with all the skill choices and special abilities to fill in. Second, most characters start out with a prior history that must be taken care of (the average PC is in his thirties to forties with about three to six terms of four years each of experience - which means XP which then become levels that have to be accomodated). Character creation usually takes an entire session. So most d20 Traveller players already have an investment in their PCs right out of the gate.