Quote from: kryyst;282362How so exactly?

Primarily differences in genre. I suspect it's probably easier to be a typical rpg adventurer type in WF than in 40K because it's just easier in the fantasy genre. Even though life in the Empire is not a bed of roses it seems a lot freer than being necessarily planetbound, surrounded by unremitting hostility/the Warp, and generally ignorant of how the world works. 40K isn't exactly conducive to the Han Solo type; the independent travelling adventurer

Whereas in fantasy all you need is a horse!

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;282457Rogue Trader is such a silly term. It doesn't inspire the right kind of image I'm afraid

What kind of image are you expecting?  Rogue Trader is pretty much an accurate description for a game about, Traders in space ships dealing on the fringes of space and encountering and socializing with things that are taboo.  Think of something along the lines of Firefly, only with things scarier then Reavers.

oh and WW = White Wolf.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;282459Primarily differences in genre. I suspect it's probably easier to be a typical rpg adventurer type in WF than in 40K because it's just easier in the fantasy genre. Even though life in the Empire is not a bed of roses it seems a lot freer than being necessarily planetbound, surrounded by unremitting hostility/the Warp, and generally ignorant of how the world works. 40K isn't exactly conducive to the Han Solo type; the independent travelling adventurer

Whereas in fantasy all you need is a horse!

Soo.... 40k provides more freedom then WFRP because it's not planet bound, but is also completely capable of playing a game that is localized for an extended period of time.   You can actually rather easily do the Han Solo type game with Inquisitors because they are one of the few that has the freedom to come and go pretty much as they please.

Really there isn't much you can't do in a 40k story that would seem out of place.  Where as with WFRP, your playing fantasy in the Old World and that's about it.  Not that I'm knocking WFRP.   But to say that it's easier is really dependent on the preference of the GM.

Quote from: kryyst;282469What kind of image are you expecting?  Rogue Trader is pretty much an accurate description for a game about, Traders in space ships dealing on the fringes of space and encountering and socializing with things that are taboo.  Think of something along the lines of Firefly, only with things scarier then Reavers.

oh and WW = White Wolf.

Rogue Traders = dodgy builders and tradesmen, at least nowadays.

Perhaps not the sort of game people would have in mind when playing a 40k rpg.

Quote from: kryyst;282473Soo.... 40k provides more freedom then WFRP because it's not planet bound, but is also completely capable of playing a game that is localized for an extended period of time.   You can actually rather easily do the Han Solo type game with Inquisitors because they are one of the few that has the freedom to come and go pretty much as they please.

Really there isn't much you can't do in a 40k story that would seem out of place.  Where as with WFRP, your playing fantasy in the Old World and that's about it.  Not that I'm knocking WFRP.   But to say that it's easier is really dependent on the preference of the GM.

Given how dangerous space travel is I'm not convinced you can do a game where you traverse the galaxy as easily as something like star wars. Then you have to deal with implacable unremitting forces of evil that are a hair's breadth away from utterly destroying humanity as well as the fact every alien race is treated, by the imperium at least, with the utmost suspicion if not rampant zealous hostility.

That's great for a wargame, but not necessarily an rpg. Whereas in WFRP players can be from different races (ie men, dwarves and elves) without such emnity.

I think we can take it as read that individual players can adapt and bend things to their own interpretation. That's not really the point.

Quote from: kryyst;282473Soo.... 40k provides more freedom then WFRP because it's not planet bound, but is also completely capable of playing a game that is localized for an extended period of time.   You can actually rather easily do the Han Solo type game with Inquisitors because they are one of the few that has the freedom to come and go pretty much as they please.

Except you don't get to play an Inquisitor in the 40k RPG. You get to play his manservant.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;282475Given how dangerous space travel is I'm not convinced you can do a game where you traverse the galaxy as easily as something like star wars. Then you have to deal with implacable unremitting forces of evil that are a hair's breadth away from utterly destroying humanity as well as the fact every alien race is treated, by the imperium at least, with the utmost suspicion if not rampant zealous hostility.

That's great for a wargame, but not necessarily an rpg. Whereas in WFRP players can be from different races (ie men, dwarves and elves) without such emnity.

I think we can take it as read that individual players can adapt and bend things to their own interpretation. That's not really the point.

The thing is, the original 40k universe posited by Rogue Trader, the original book, was totally playable as an RPG.  Its just that with each new edition, GW has made it more and more extremist to the point of being unplayable.

You used to have halflings, dwarves, humans and elves in 40K (ok, the elves were a bit freaky, but still).  And they could and did in fact travel together in certain circumstances.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;282615Except you don't get to play an Inquisitor in the 40k RPG. You get to play his manservant.

RPGPundit

I dare you to refer to a CIA field op as a "manservant" to their face at some point, and see how well that goes over.

Your asinine remark strikes me as akin to demanding to be able to play the Director of the CIA instead of an agent in an espionage campaign.

If you'd actually read the book, you might've even realized that's pretty much how the game handles it, except to make it's agents even more autonomous, and that the system itself doesn't remotely require the Inquisition conceit, and can just as easily be run without it.

But you haven't, so you'll just keep parroting soundbites you read on the internet, just like I did before I actually bought and played the goddamn game.

I notice the DH book doesn't (AFAICT) include rules/stats for Orks/Eldar/Dark Eldar and many of the other notable races as antagonists.

No the core book doesn't include those things as they weren't part of the initial scope for DH.  However is basically a monster manual coming out shortly that has all those antagonists in it.

FWIW Purge the Unclean does have Dark Eldar and Space Marine NPCs and Creatures Anathema has Orks, Eldar and Genestealers according to this review.

Disciples of the Dark Gods even has stats for two Inquisitors.

However what these high level NPC stats indicate is how bad the game is at scaling.

The PtU Space Marine is so overpowered that he has to be literally forcibly separated from the PCs for most of the adventure as otherwise they'd just be his audience - and then has to magically reappear at the finale to stop them from being slaughtered by the opposition.

The Inquisitors in DotDG strike me as being fundamentally unplayable as NPCs - while their attributes are nothing at all special (all in the 36-59 range) they each have dozens upon dozens of skills, traits, talents and psychic powers.

In a game like HeroQuest with a single unified mechanic this might just work - but in DH every skill, trait, talent and power has its own rules that you'd have to look up (no easy feat when only the DH corebook has a fucking index) separately.

And then there is the Big Bad in the DotDG adventure - a Slaughth Overseer with an unnatural toughness bonus of 10 plus armour worth 3 points, 30 wounds, regeneration of 2d5 wounds per round, complete invulnerability to all psyker and force weapon attacks and a fear rating that will send most PCs fleeing in panic before they can fire a shot - which is probably just as well as the only weapon amongst all the gun porn listed in the corebook and Inquisitors Handbook that might conceivably damage it is a laser cannon.  

Much as I love the setting fluff it comes bundled with, to me the DH system looks more broken with each new release - and I just can't see how Rogue Trader or Death Watch can save it without ripping out the bloated mess DH has become and starting again.

Eh, all you've proved there is that the pre-written adventures suck.

This is nothing new with any game, which is why I don't buy pre-written adventures.

There are other, better, fan write-ups for many of the creatures and careers you mention, with none of the problems.

Oddly those are the qualities I like about it.  High leverl characters don't have ridiculously high stats they have above average stats but it's their skills and abilities that make the difference.  It gives characters depth and variety and actually simulates a characters that's been around and done everything.

Quote from: J Arcane;282639I dare you to refer to a CIA field op as a "manservant" to their face at some point, and see how well that goes over.

Your asinine remark strikes me as akin to demanding to be able to play the Director of the CIA instead of an agent in an espionage campaign.

Except its not the same, and you know it.
The closer comparison might be like playing someone akin to a regional employee without agent status; in DH its not like you're playing a "young, rookie" inquisitor, much less a trained and authorized agent with experience; the group's NPC inquisitor is the equivalent of the "Field agent", your character are at best the equivalent of the 3rd world banana republic cops the guy might comandeer to do some of his dirty work.
Not only do you NOT play the inquisitor in the game, you can NEVER get to be the inquisitor in the game.

QuoteIf you'd actually read the book, you might've even realized that's pretty much how the game handles it,

I've read the book; your analogy above is disingenuous.

RPGPundit

Quote from: J Arcane;282722Eh, all you've proved there is that the pre-written adventures suck.

This is nothing new with any game, which is why I don't buy pre-written adventures.

There are other, better, fan write-ups for many of the creatures and careers you mention, with none of the problems.

Firstly how many of us have time to write our own campaigns and adventures from scratch?

In fact most of the published adventures are not badly written - quite the opposite from a literary POV - but several are unplayable because the character levels they are written for (starting PCs with a few hundred to a couple of thousand XPs) are completely outclassed by the opponents and challenges included.  

Your second point is so general to be meaningless - yes any fan can fix a problem - however for those of us who have jobs and lives in the real world it would be nice if you could invest £100 or $200 in a set of books and have a game that is playable without massive houseruling.