You are entirely overstating the competency of the entire populace.  The populace are peons little better the fodder.  Guardsmen are a dime a dozen conscripts.  With the exception of a few specialty societies like the Space Marines, most people are good at their one task be it digging a ditch or charging and firing.

Acolytes are a margin above useless, some spark that makes them suitable as a potential tool for the inquisition.  They are not full fledged inquisitors.  The starting guardsmen career is representative of someone who has seen battle and isn't fresh out of the academy.  400xp and a few fate points is pretty much about right.  

You are living in some fanboy fantasy that is under the delusion that the games default setting should actually be end level characters.

I summon Erik Boille! (where's he gone anyhow?)

I was waiting for him to show up.

Quote from: Spike;282223Right now I find two starting characters of the same class, regardless of background virtually identical in terms of mechanics.  

That's common to every game.   Even in point based systems.   Compare 10 superhero characters who are bricks or mentalists and you are going see huge overlap.   Even in fantasy, most GURPS characters I have seen are just builds of D&D classes...usually Fighter Mages.

Quote from: Spike;282223Character creation should at least produce 'common man' levels of competence as a default, which we simply don't get even with the 400 xp we start with (honestly, if starting characters have to be given XP to get them up to default speed, maybe you should either rethink your default or beef up creation a little.

I don't fault the game for this.   I fault the writers for not discussing starting campaign levels more clearly and discussing what XP levels would create XYZ power levels.

Starting at higher XP has been a time-honored answer to the zero-to-hero concern for 35 years and it works fine.

If they were but Zero's I might not object so much, but...


... by my own account, long before I was even so much as, say, a raw conscript in the Guardsman path I had racked up several hundred xp in such odd tasks as... I dunno... driving cars and prestidigitation, not to mention being able to handle animals, ride horses and even, yes virginia, hunt and kill my own food with nothing but the Emperor given abilities of a young Pika... ok, maybe that doesn't apply to you pinkskins.

Seriously... by comparison the average denizen of an Imperial Shrine world has something on the order of a 15% chance to know any given thing of the Imperial Creed.  Thats like asking a Southern Baptist to name the son of god and having a one in six chance of them saying 'Jesus' and a 5 in six chance of them saying anything else.

Ok... maybe not a southern baptist, but someone who grew up in the bible belt at least.

The characters are not just zeroes, they are mental defectives who have failed to learn almost anything in their lives except, if they are lucky, how to shoot a single type of gun well... and just one at that...because apparently the basic principles of marksmanship are radically different between regular guns, las guns and bolt guns and so forth to the point where it takes MONTHS of study to figure out what you are doing wrong!  You know, the equivilent of becoming fluent in another language...

As I said: LESS THAN Zeros. Seriously, i expect the default starting characters to be prepubescents.

And seriously Spinachat: If the writers failed to discuss starting campaign levels, then yes, the game is at fault. It is the product of a flawed writing process.  How can it be anything but?

Quote from: Spike;282266If they were but Zero's I might not object so much, but...

... by my own account, long before I was even so much as, say, a raw conscript in the Guardsman path I had racked up several hundred xp in such odd tasks as... I dunno... driving cars and prestidigitation, not to mention being able to handle animals, ride horses and even, yes virginia, hunt and kill my own food with nothing but the Emperor given abilities of a young Pika... ok, maybe that doesn't apply to you pinkskins.

Don't try and pass off your clear lack of knowledge of the mechanics as a fault in the mechanics.

Any task roll required is because there is a consequence for failure, hence stress, hence the need for a roll.  To use your lame arguments.  Asking a person a question about the imperial creed in casual conversation they'll either know it or they won't, no roll required.  Sitting that person down in a chair with the spot light on them and an Inquisitor with a bolt gun pointing at them.  Well now you've introduced stress and an implied risk of failure into the equation so now we call for a roll.  Then you apply modifiers to that so something simple everyone should now +30 to their chance...something challenging it's a flat roll something obscure -30.   Of course the modifier could be anywhere in between.

Now we move on to our hunters.  First we'll assume that we have our peon existing on a world were he'd have access to a gun.  Then he's taught the proper rituals to not jam the thing up every time he's firing it.  Now we have him at a shooting range.  Aiming at a target probably at close range to boot, right there that's +20 to his chances.

We take him out hunting he's still going to be aiming there's that +10 again most of the time and he's not having to dodge around or worry about that bird shooting back at him.  But that's not even a real comparison or proper use of the rules.  Hunting for food's not even a WS check it's a survival check, if you even called for it.  So you oh great back hunter hunting for food in your element with the right tools, routine survival check +30, meaning the average hunter's going to succeed at least 50% of the time he goes out.  Which is a hell of a lot better ratio of success for most hunters I know.

No WS checks for our hunter are because he's tracking his dear and suddenly runs into a xenon trying to eat him.  That's when the bird hunter forgets which way is up, which end of the gun to hold and what the hell he's doing.  That's when your training and WS come in.

As for all your day to day crap, why would you gain experience for working within your abilities.  I can drive my car to work every day and never become a better drive.  Take it to the track though and that's experience worthy.  I can do routine math equations all day long and I'll never grasp a firmer understanding of mathematics because I'm not pushing myself.

The gen pop are peon's they have a set station in life and very few ever go beyond that.   Or do you want to play in the 40k equiv to Forgotten Realms where every town guard is a 5th level warrior and every bartender is a 14th level retired adventurer.....

Clearly DH isn't for you, that's perfectly clear.  Wait another few years until Deathwatch comes out and you can frap off in your full combat issue power armour with a bolt gun in each hand.  But what you are trying to point out as a flaw in the system just doesn't exist.

Have fun with your strawmen Kryyst.  I ain't buyin' it.  I loved the cute little dig at the end too, that was a classic.  

Just because I think the average starting character should be more competent than an utterly untutored 12 year old doesn't mean I need to go full on heavy metal gwar! powermad to get my thrills on.  I, for one, never complained about having to play a rat catcher or rake in fantasy.. hey! they at least got a few SKILLS.

Every.Single.Background. only provides 'basic untrained skill' levels to otherwise advanced skills with the exception of the occisional language.  Even, you know, a lifetime of monastic training from the Schola Progenium, or growing up on a feral deathworld, or being a former Juve ganger from deep in an underhive...

The Inquisitors handbook did address many of my complaints about the lack of versimilitude to the setting, though it shouldn't have needed to be squeezed into a second book.  Character creation is just weak sauce here.

WFRP characters and DH characters have pretty much the same number of skills/talents.  You have no issue with one but a HUGE problem with the other.  You are contradicting yourself.  

I like the little digs, they are fun late at night.

I don't think that's really fair; the two settings are different in a number of ways that make 40k a lot more unforgiving as a game setting.

Looking back at 1st ed. 40k (Rogue Trader), that seems more of a suitable 40k rpg than Dark Heresy and it's narrow focus.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;282353I don't think that's really fair; the two settings are different in a number of ways that make 40k a lot more unforgiving as a game setting.

How so exactly?

Is anybody here excited for Rogue Trader? I'll be honest: WHFR & DH system is one of the best newer systems out there. Rogue Trader also appears to solve the narrow focus that sometimes get in the way of Dark Heresy's potential.

Quote from: vomitbrown;282372Is anybody here excited for Rogue Trader? I'll be honest: WHFR & DH system is one of the best newer systems out there. Rogue Trader also appears to solve the narrow focus that sometimes get in the way of Dark Heresy's potential.

Despite that narrow focus, as well as a temporary out of print status, and a change of publisher, DH has managed to replace WW as the number 2 game on the market, so I think their potential is about as good as it's gonna get, but hey, Rogue Trader certainly can't hurt.  I'll be getting it.

My only concern is that not being a direct part of the Black Library anymore means they won't have the same pool of experienced 40k authors to pull from like the original DH book did.

If it's not apparent yet.  Yes I'm excited about Rogue Trader.  DH may possible over throw WFRP as my favorite system.  Even though the two are largely similar there are some rule tweaks done in DH may just give it an edge. If Rogue Trader continues down the same road of awesome that DH is then it will top WFRP.

Rogue Trader is such a silly term. It doesn't inspire the right kind of image I'm afraid

Quote from: J Arcane;282386Despite that narrow focus, as well as a temporary out of print status, and a change of publisher, DH has managed to replace WW as the number 2 game on the market, so I think their potential is about as good as it's gonna get, but hey, Rogue Trader certainly can't hurt.  I'll be getting it.

My only concern is that not being a direct part of the Black Library anymore means they won't have the same pool of experienced 40k authors to pull from like the original DH book did.

What is 'WW'?