The Theory is a simple one, and this is how I see games. This is based on every gaming experience I've had:
 
Players love escalating power. When they look back at session 1 from session 10 they want to see notable progress in their physical or social standing within the ruleset or gameworld.
 
However it happens. Whether through gaining levels and ranks, spending XP, earning friends, they want to see their characters inluence over the game world increased.
 
Players become unhappy when they the don't have power over the gameworld. They also hate it when power given to them is decreased. Deprotagonisation is the word I've heard making the rounds for this effect on their charcters. They do not generally have fun when a character loses a limb, a level, a weapon, or an ability; many gamers do not see this as a "Roleplaying opputunity" or a challenge. They see it as a punishment. They sulk because their character has become less "powerful".
 
So, is deprotagonisation bad gameplay move by a GM?
 
Is it bad idea to design a game based on deprotagonising the PC's?

I doubt I'd take a character level. but I've taken danm near everything else at one time or another, including limbs, social standing and all manner of gear. Nobody ever sulks. Usually, they just get really motivated.

The most motivation I've seen is the motivation to get whatever was taken back.
 
How would you feel about it as a PLayer rather than a GM?

Quote from: KrakaJakThe most motivation I've seen is the motivation to get whatever was taken back.
 
How would you feel about it as a PLayer rather than a GM?

While I think that deprotagonisation is becoming a code word for 'weaken the GM' in many circles, the subject itself is about the classic a balance between risk and reward. Most games are not played on the assumption that the players will defeat session after session. Campaigns based on the above suggestion would only work if the players had fun doing it, and in the end I think it would wear out its welcome as any situation that's all stick, no carrot.

Yarr, the kind of "deprotagonization" ye be talking about (losing levels, powers, and such) is a rough sea to sail indeed, me bucko!

Ye have to be a right salty sea Cap'n to know how to sail it and not have yer swabs go mutiny and have ye walk the plank!

If yer ta show them the ropes end, me bucko, ye best be sure they're man enough to handle kissing the gunner's daughter, by thunder!

When they are, it be some of the best winds for sailing full speed ahead ta good roleplay!

For example, one of my salty sea dogs in me Legion of Super Pirates..er, Heroes.. campaign has been playing the last three sessions with his powers lost.  Other swabs, cowardly landlubbers they, might be crying like wee slips of a lassie by now, but he's takin it like a man and making it fer much stronger roleplay, me hearty!

YARRRPGPundit

It be a hard lane to sail.  Shoals and rocks abound, and many's the campaign I've seen sundered and left to rot!

A fine captain must bend the ears of his men and hone their desire to the booty ahead, else he be a damned fool.

(And it HAS been a fine SLAPD all around.  This is better than Halloween.)

I once had a player character bent over on all fours with a candle up his arse, being used as a ritual table by acolytes of the Trickster God. He was a morokanth, which look much like tapirs. He took it very well.

Quote from: KrakaJakThe most motivation I've seen is the motivation to get whatever was taken back.
 
How would you feel about it as a PLayer rather than a GM?

That's crazy talk. I haven't played a character in ten years. That said, when it did happen my feelings could range from amused to annoyed- it all depends on the GM and how they go about it. I don't mind getting my ass kicked as a pc, I don't even mind unbeatable odds, what I do mind is what my friends and I call "The never ending stream of ninja dwarves"

(The term nesnd refers back to a lame ass shadowrun game we endured back in the early 90's. We (the pcs) were in a subway tunnel. suddenly dwarf ninjas attack. We kick their collective ass. suddenly there are more dwarf ninjas- we kick their ass too! Wait, there is another group just like the first two- at this point it becomes apparent that we must lose the fight- fourtunately one of the round three dwarf ninjas had a cannister of sleeping gas, and we were all knocked out without having to endure another round of combat in a fight we were never going to win.)

but really, getting you ass kicked and having your shit jacked is all part of the deal isn't it? I'd rather have some that going on than continual success without pain. Killing a bad guy who has actually managed to fuck you over and humiliate you is far more satisfying than killing some random monster you've never had any real contact with.

This thread's title makes me want to start one called "Disestablishmentarianism: is it fun?"

Quote from: ColonelHardissonThis thread's title makes me want to start one called "Disestablishmentarianism: is it fun?"

It is when you're doing the disestablishing.

You gotta take the good with the bad. It's part of any game. Poker wouldn't have the appeal and staying-power that it does if you never lost your shirt on a hand every now and again, not matter how skilled a veteran you were.

"Deprotagonization" is just another bullshit buzzword coined by the same immature (probably Exalted-playing) brats that never want Their (megapowerful) Guy to suffer any defeats or setbacks, which is difficult to arrange if they actually play a real game that requires real skill to succeed at consistantly.

What would you have done if I'd had a candle stuck up your character's arse?

Quote from: droogWhat would you have done if I'd had a candle stuck up your character's arse?

Gained a story that would last a lifetime.

Match point for Yamo.

RPGPundit

Yes, the player actually died a couple of years ago, so I suppose you could say the story lasted beyond his lifetime.

He wouldn't have minded me telling it, I'm sure.