Quote from: RPGPundit;276153So, is there anything 2e has as a game, that 1e or D&D basic/expert or OD&D did NOT have, that made it really a better game?

Spelljammer
Dark Sun
Ravenloft
Planescape

The only thing I found useful about 2e were the settings.  However, the minor rules variations between 1e and 2e were meaningless to me because I do so much houseruling that I never played 1e by the book in the first place.

Quote from: Drohem;276254Thanks for the links Age of Fable!  I hadn't see the BD&D custom class article before.

No worries

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;276235the Cavalier, while on paper was loaded down with goodies, didn't do all that well in actual play in the 2e era.

I had a player take a Cavalier PC to level 20 without any problems, so I must assume its a play style issue you refer to with this particular kit.

Quote from: RPGPundit;276153So, is there anything 2e has as a game, that 1e or D&D basic/expert or OD&D did NOT have, that made it really a better game?

I'm quite fond of the priest spells by pantheon, the legibility and clarity of the rules, the mounds of support and the THAC0.  I usedta talk smack on that game, but i got over it--and over myself.

Quote from: El Pundito De Los JDRIf you believe so, besides explaining just what that something was, did that something also carry through to 3e or 4e?

NnnnnnnnnOPE.  Not that I care to remember, anyway.

Quote from: Age of Fable;276251By the way someone also made an unofficial version of this for Basic D&D, which is here.

Yes!

I had become burnt out on D&D and this article is one of the things that rekindled my enthusiasm for the game.

Quote from: Spinachcat;276265Spelljammer
Dark Sun
Ravenloft
Planescape

Whoa, you just listed all my favourite settings.

As for 2E, I had no problems with it. 3E is a "better" game I think but I just view it as a generic fantasy system and not D&D....I know, I know, doesn't make much sense...

Regards,
David R

Almost everything in 2e was better than in 1e except for the following, which completely sucked :

Ranger as arcane caster
Ranger as two-weapon fighting guy
Priest spell spheres
Unarmed fighting rules - not worse than 1e, but not better either

Vanilla.  It put out the most simplistic flavor for mass consumption but relied on toppings for many to make it tasty.  The core was pretty bland but when you started adding too much to it to add flavor you could come up with some awful concoctions.  With 1st edition we just removed the parts we didn't like.  I wouldn't consider this much of a problem now but during our teenage years it lead to a lot near hit campaigns.  We wanted to implement that added flavor but really had no idea how to.  Added to that was a certain rules mastery to 1st edition that none of us ever truly accomplished with 2nd edition due to the myriad of options that were presented in one form or another.  A lot of bitterness comes from that transition and a certain pride of knowledge that encouraged play out of those earlier tomes.  

2nd edition had to surpass the adventures that preceded it in many eyes.  I've always thought that was its greatest failure.  I think the settings would have been just as popular with 1st edition.

Quote from: MarionPoliquin;276335Almost everything in 2e was better than in 1e except for the following, which completely sucked :

Ranger as arcane caster
Ranger as two-weapon fighting guy
Priest spell spheres
Unarmed fighting rules - not worse than 1e, but not better either

Mr Poliquin!  We meet again!  

I disagree on a couple of points.  Ranger as arcane was a bit of a miss, but the spell spheres were one of the best improvements to come out of 2e.  I don't recall a big need for unarmed fighting rules; we usually just punched for 1d6 plus Strength if we didn't have weapons.  Your perception seems correct, however, no real innovation or improvement in the rules themselves.

Quote from: Gunslinger;2763402nd edition had to surpass the adventures that preceded it in many eyes.  I've always thought that was its greatest failure.  I think the settings would have been just as popular with 1st edition.

This is an interesting point which has merit, in my eyes as well.  It seems like TSR just re-hashed all the old classic 1e AD&D modules for 2e AD&D.  I know that this is a gross over simplification; I know that there were many adventures and modules produced for 2e AD&D that were original.  However, when I reflect back on the 2e AD&D days, all I can remember is playing the re-written 1e AD&D classic modules over again.

However, this may be just my narrow perception, and terrible memory converging to form this point in my mind currently.  

"Move along, nothing to see here."

Quote from: Drohem;276386This is an interesting point which has merit, in my eyes as well.  It seems like TSR just re-hashed all the old classic 1e AD&D modules for 2e AD&D.  I know that this is a gross over simplification; I know that there were many adventures and modules produced for 2e AD&D that were original.  However, when I reflect back on the 2e AD&D days, all I can remember is playing the re-written 1e AD&D classic modules over again.

However, this may be just my narrow perception, and terrible memory converging to form this point in my mind currently.  

"Move along, nothing to see here."

Hmmm. I almost never used the modules/adventures. I only ever bought one, over a 20 year period, and considerably modified it before use.

-clash

Unfortunately, when I was a new player to 1e AD&D, the DM of our group never ran a non-published adventure.  This carried over into 2e AD&D before his retirement from role-playing.  In part, as a reaction to this DM's style, this was the stimulus for me to start creating my own adventures and campaigns under 1e AD&D as well.

QuoteIs there Anything Really Redeemable About 2e?

I first played RPGs with it, and it hooked me up. Do you really need more reasons?

Quote from: Drohem;276386This is an interesting point which has merit, in my eyes as well.  It seems like TSR just re-hashed all the old classic 1e AD&D modules for 2e AD&D.  I know that this is a gross over simplification; I know that there were many adventures and modules produced for 2e AD&D that were original.  However, when I reflect back on the 2e AD&D days, all I can remember is playing the re-written 1e AD&D classic modules over again.

In the 2E era, TSR published precious few dungeon or adventure settings of the likes of Village of Hommlet, White Plume Mountain, or the Giant Series. The only original dungeon adventure in the classic mold that springs to mind is the Night Below campaign (which was a good one).

No, that was the Dragonlance era, when D&D was supposed to be all about heroic world-saving sagas. Adventures stopped being modular settings and became prescribed stories. Will a band of brave heroes recover the Ring of Randalar and restore prince Kervis to the throne of Greenhelm? Insert characters here and find out!

Honestly? No, theres nothing worth saving even those magic encyclopedias are hard to get around.

Theres a challenge for people to overcome the 2e series because its so vast so they really have to spend all their time there to really get whats off putting. Its a life experience that can't be put in simple forum posts about what was good and bad. I was there at the beginning to almost the end and I bought everything as it came out. You just can't translate the horrors of "second edition" by citation. A decade of disappointment from DRAGON to the gazetteers to the option books. BAD! BAD! BAD! The settings? Overworded, non-game and non-literary nothing books that left you feeling poisoned and foolish for wasting money on it.

Bottom line if you really dig deep, you come up with the fact that every book is really diluted gameplay. That means that "book to table" prevention that is innate in all 2e products is going to kill something eventually. You didn't get that "overbaked clunk" in the old days (my great aunt was playing OD&D/AD&D for crying out loud!).

Can I wipe the foam off my mouth now?



Seriously, I used to say the historical refs but even they could have had more "game". Too much blah, blah, blah and you end up with a day at the beach when all the shells were cracked...