Quote from: estar;246019I under no illusion that restoring a D&D boxed to the toy stores is going to ignite a new mass market craze.

Are you sure? Because you seem to...

Quote from: estar;246019My purpose in doing so would to be restore or strengthen a flow of new gamers from the mainstream community.

I thought you just said you weren't expecting a return to the glory days? That "flow of new gamers from the mainstream community" only happened at one point - the 80's.

Look around - we're all old dudes who have been playing for decades. There has been any appreciable amount of new blood in the hobby for a long, long time.

Quote from: estar;246019Have a full RPG at a price point where people will just try it for the heck of it.

First, who cares if it's a "full" or "complete" RPG? It's meant to get people interested in gaming, not support their gaming activities for years.

Second, you think the price point matters?

A video game is $60.

Dinner and a movie for two adults is $60.

A Wii is $270.

A DVD is $20.

A hardback book is over $20. Hell, a paperback is $8.

An iPod is $60.

You have to buy software to play MMOs, then get charged a monthly $15 fee.

Face, people choose not to play RPGs because they don't feel it's worth it. It's like doing homework, then committing to meet with a bunch of weirdos for hours each week for something that could very well be an exercise in masochism. Yes, RPGs captured the imagination of some folks back in the day, but those days are over.

They're over dude.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;246101committing to meet with a bunch of weirdos

Seanchai

I game with friends. Who do you play with?

Quote from: Seanchai;246101I thought you just said you weren't expecting a return to the glory days? That "flow of new gamers from the mainstream community" only happened at one point - the 80's.

Really? I remember fuckton of people getting involved in the 90s, people who wouldn't have played otherwise, but who were interested in the new types of games they were seeing.

Quote from: Seanchai;246101Dinner and a movie for two adults is $60.

Or, likely, more. I suppose it depends on where you eat dinner, and what sort of concessions you get at the theater.

Quote from: Seanchai;246101Face, people choose not to play RPGs because they don't feel it's worth it.

I think it's overly simplistic to assign a single motive to the millions of people who "choose not to play RPGs."

Quote from: Seanchai;246101Yes, RPGs captured the imagination of some folks back in the day, but those days are over.

I capture people pretty regularly, as do the other gamers I know. Perhaps that's not a new influx of millions of new players, but the days of RPGs capturing the imagination of new people are by no means over. Adoption rates may have slowed, but they have not stopped. Would you agree with that?

Quote from: Engine;246112I think it's overly simplistic to assign a single motive to the millions of people who "choose not to play RPGs."

Cowardice!  They fear our awesome!

Quote from: Aos;245993Gamers are a socially inept, argumentative lot, many of whom have questionable hygiene. There are some (many in fact) who wont even consider the idea of bringing new blood into the hobby....
Beyond that, there is the other major issue. Gamers are, by and large, a puritanical lot....
I won;t even get into the social stigmas surrounding obesity, because, you know, we're all skinnny as hell around these parts.

Are you serious? What a ridiculous generalization. I think maybe your perception of the hobby is distorted by anecdotal experience, like personal experience and...you know, the guys you meet at TheRPGSite. Or maybe it's my experience that's distorted, because you're not describing my group. Like, at all.

*sigh* I've rewritten this post four times, trying to find a way to describe our group in a way that doesn't sound like I'm showing off, but I really can't. [Details, I guess, available upon request.] Suffice to say, we don't fit into this pigeonhole, which could just mean we're a statistical anomaly; still, it sounds like you've taken the gross stereotype and writ it large, and I don't think that's meaningful.

Quote from: Aos;245993Then there is the related issue of the social stigma that still clings to the hobby- despite what you may all want to tell yourselves.

Now that strikes me as the greatest reason more people don't play. But that's only anecdotal, based on my experience.

Quote from: estar;245770I guess we will need some hard data then because I remember this happening after AD&D2.

But then the alternative is that TSR over printed which they often did when Lorraine Williams was in charge.

Don't forget that late in its life Mentzer D&D started looking very unwieldy. Once you have have a game whose core rules consist of 3-5 boxed sets, it starts getting hard for outsiders to get to grips with it - and it starts looking easier just to buy the 3 core AD&D books and have done with it.

Quote from: Warthur;246151Don't forget that late in its life Mentzer D&D started looking very unwieldy. Once you have have a game whose core rules consist of 3-5 boxed sets, it starts getting hard for outsiders to get to grips with it - and it starts looking easier just to buy the 3 core AD&D books and have done with it.

Of course this is why they produced the Rule Cyclopedia, essentially, wasn't it?

Quote from: Silverlion;246110I game with friends. Who do you play with?

Friends. Doesn't mean everyone - particularly starting up - will have the same opportunity. Moreover, who says your friends can't be weirdos?

Seanchai

Quote from: Silverlion;246159Of course this is why they produced the Rule Cyclopedia, essentially, wasn't it?

Yes, but that was well into the 2E era, and a while after the old Mentzer set went out of print - though they did put out the black-box basic starter set at the same time.

Quote from: Engine;246112I think it's overly simplistic to assign a single motive to the millions of people who "choose not to play RPGs."

Tell it to the opposition. The idea that we can't know for sure why so many people aren't playing RPGs applies to the assertion that all it's going to take is a simple, "complete" boxed set as well.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;246169Tell it to the opposition.

Good point. I'll do so:

The idea that we can't know for sure why so many people aren't playing RPGs applies to the assertion that all it's going to take is a simple, "complete" boxed set as well.

Quote from: Seanchai;246089Who cares? Who cares how he game, when the matter in dispute is what he actually wrote.

Here's a thread on the topic, over at the OD&D board.

It's funny, at one point, Gygax is quoted saying that the movement to use miniatures (which started around 1976--two years after publication) was bringing the game back to its wargaming roots.

Quote from: Gary Gygax in 1978Because of the return of miniatures to D&D, the game is tending to come full circle; back to table top battles not unlike those which were first fought with D&D’s parent, CHAINMAIL’s “Fantasy Supplement”, now occurring quite regularly.

Plus ça change...

If you look at the actual rules of Brown/White Box, miniatures are mentioned here and there but not even remotely required, and there's no clear methods of how to use them--as opposed to absolutely necessary items like graph paper.

I started on 'brown book' D&D (and Chainmail), and left trhe system before AD&D became '1e', but what I don't understand is why the excitement about the issue.

There are 3.0 and 3.5 books still avalible; hell, Judges Guild D&D preoducts are out there in pdf forms.

There's more AD&D material avalible in pdf & print thasn any GM could possible run in a lifetime, and that leaves out homebrew.

So why is 4.0 important? If you like it, great! If you don't, play 3.5 or 3e or 2e or 1e or Basic.

Or any one of many other systems out there. I've been gaming for 22 years without AD&D.

Why is a new product line carrying the AD&D label a challenge to existing AD&D games?

Quote from: OneTinSoldier;246250Why is a new product line carrying the AD&D label a challenge to existing AD&D games?

Because, even with the amount of material on pdf, there is nothing new coming out for 1st edition, BECMI or OD&D.  The line is dead.  You can dig around and find some netbooks online, but it's not exactly easy.  You can get retro-clones, too, but they suffer the same problem with new material.

On the other hand, I can more or less take any supplement or module from any publishing era of Traveller, and any necessary tweaks can be performed on the fly.  GURPS, with a bit of prep work, is similarly easy to use old material with new rules and vice versa.  With 4e, they specifically stated that updating characters and material would be nigh impossible.  They designed the system to negate all previous material.  Had Paizo not stepped up with the Pathfinder line, all the 3.x material would have been obsolete, and virutally unusable.  And compatibility between 3.0 and 2nd edition was easier, but not simple, by any means.

3.0 was a significant departure from previous rules.  4.0 is a brand new set of rules with the old name.  Of course you can still keep playing 3.x, but source material and supplements are no longer published.  When you are pressed for time with real life and whatnot, you can usually squeeze in 15 minutes here or 20 minutes there to tweak a setting or module.  Investing an hour or two (or more!) every week to set up a campaign world from scratch and then populate it is too much for many people.

Quote from: Engine;246124Are you serious? What a ridiculous generalization. I think maybe your perception of the hobby is distorted by anecdotal experience, like personal experience and...you know, the guys you meet at TheRPGSite. Or maybe it's my experience that's distorted, because you're not describing my group. Like, at all.

*sigh* I've rewritten this post four times, trying to find a way to describe our group in a way that doesn't sound like I'm showing off, but I really can't. [Details, I guess, available upon request.] Suffice to say, we don't fit into this pigeonhole, which could just mean we're a statistical anomaly; still, it sounds like you've taken the gross stereotype and writ it large, and I don't think that's meaningful.


Now that strikes me as the greatest reason more people don't play. But that's only anecdotal, based on my experience.

Yeah, I'm serious. My group isn't like this either- and I weigh a hundred and thirty pounds. So. Fucking. What. Ever go to a con? Take a look at the pics from last year and from this year in Zach's threads.
How about your local gaming store? Brad Pitt shop there? I've been in four of local gaming stores in as many months. in each of them the guy behind the counter and and the majority of customers fit my profile. I have met the lardoriffic male gamer version of "This one time at Band Camp," literally dozens of times. Last week in fact. No lie.
Why do we spend so much time trying to convince ourselves otherwise?  Ever get drunk and talk to yourself in the mirror about how not drunk you were?


I knew when I made that post that someone would have to pipe up and scream, "Not me, not me, you self loathing asshole!"  Maybe it isn't you. Hell engine, I know your life is a pimptastic wonderland of never ending delight. Rock on!
Maybe my decades of experience are totally skewed. Maybe the rest of you are all well-adjusted hard-bodies. If that's the case, congratulations.
I'm a total fucking nerd, myself, and it bothers me not at all.
Come on now, somebody call me some names.