Folks, there´s a huge elephant in the room.

Let´s adress it.

WotC presented us with 4e. Some like it, some not. There clearly is a divide. It´s real.

So, isn´t it practically impossible that the whole 4e design team at wizards is REALLY totally pro-4e?

I´d suspect there´d be internal schisms as well. Are there signs of WotCies who cry for help? Like they did in the Lorrainne Williams days?
have all dissenters been quieted? Lay-offs?

You're asking this in a really strange way, so I'd like to double-check that I've understood the question.

Basically, you point out that the geek community as a whole is divided over whether they like 4e.

Then you ask "If the geek community as a whole is divided, is it possible that the WotC staff can be entirely behind the product that they all worked their asses off producing?"

Have I got that right?

burn the wotch!

No Tony. He's saying that there must be some folks in WotC who don't really like 4E and are crying out for help. And if only people would stop enjoying 4E and put down their dice they would be able to hear these cries for help.

Regards,
David R

The difference between being fascinated with RPGs and being fascinated with the RPG industry is akin to the difference between being fascinated with sex and being fascinated with masturbation. Not that there's anything wrong with jerking off, but don't fool yourself into thinking you're getting laid.

Ka-ching!

Words of great wisdom, Aos.

I may have to sig that.  (to remind myself at the very least).

I've made my peace with 4e and wish it well.  If I've got a slot and there is still a seat available, I'll sit down for a session with the ChattyDM who is one of our Guests of Honour at Draconis.

I 4saw your eventual surrender to the dark side as inevitable. After all we've got cool powers and shit, 4real.
I edited out the extra "the" in my earlier post btw.

Wouldn't these hypothetical quite the company in a resignation that was ppolite publicly, but privately they are ticked off?  These hypothetical WotC former employees go on to work for other game companies or start their own.


 Are there any individuals that fit that pattern?

 If not then it would appear that the current WotC staff are happy with ahat they created and release this past spring.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Aos;245186The difference between being fascinated with RPGs and being fascinated with the RPG industry is...

Lipstick.

hmmm...well, it could be argued that 4e is to D&D what a maximum security prison is to a playground.

However I suspect that the designers at WotC are all united in cashing their paychecks, actually gaming very little and caring even less.

No bile towards them here incidentally.  Jobs are just like that, no matter how awesome they look from the outside.

Quote from: David Johansen;245260However I suspect that the designers at WotC are all united in cashing their paychecks, actually gaming very little and caring even less.

No bile towards them here incidentally.  Jobs are just like that, no matter how awesome they look from the outside.

Tend to agree. Not that anyone is actually rubbing their hands together and laughing maliciously at the poor gamer slobs buying their stuff, but they are probably in something of a bubble and losing sight of the compromises they have made.

Frank Mentzer made the comment that he doesn't see D&D continuing much longer as a Hasbro product given its low ROI. We can only speculate, but I think that this the the real elephant in the room and I'm already on the record as saying 4e will be the last Hasbro/WotC edition.

Quote from: Settembrini;245146Folks, there´s a huge elephant in the room.

Let´s adress it.

WotC presented us with 4e. Some like it, some not. There clearly is a divide. It´s real.

So, isn´t it practically impossible that the whole 4e design team at wizards is REALLY totally pro-4e?

No, I don't think it's impossible. So many years have gone by, that understanding and appreciation for the old school ethos is quite possibly dissipated to near zilch among the current generation of designers. On top of that, 3e may have initiated the selection process/feedback loop that helped gather the "design heavy" and "gamist" (encount4rdization) crowd into the bosom of WotC and Hasbro.

In short I find it very easy to believe that Hasbro/WotC is competently managed in the sense that, having decided what they want D&D to be, they've been able to hire and promote people whose idea of RPGing (or at least D&D) is consistent with that. It might even be a good business decision, even though both the public it's designed for and the people who've been chosen to implement it don't really know the history of their own hobby (as is being argued at length by James Maliszewski over at Grognardia).

Quote from: Settembrini;245146Folks, there´s a huge elephant in the room.

In what room? The four by four padded cell they keep you in? Did you just get tired of the lack of bitching about 4e and decide to drum some up? (Those are, by the by, rhetorical questions...)

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;245270In what room? The four by four padded cell they keep you in?

I begged you guys to visit him there, but no. It was all about "we're having fun discussing the games we are currently playing". Inconsiderate bastards.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;245267No, I don't think it's impossible. So many years have gone by, that understanding and appreciation for the old school ethos is quite possibly dissipated to near zilch among the current generation of designers. On top of that, 3e may have initiated the selection process/feedback loop that helped gather the "design heavy" and "gamist" (encount4rdization) crowd into the bosom of WotC and Hasbro.

Actually for someone who never was into oldschool (me, my circle of gamers etc.) 4e looks really old school. Granted there are some cool powers but the things I associate with oldschool are there - in spades.
Those are resource management in the form of items and special powers and "challenge oriented" gaming. To me it looks like oldschool in a modern guise and I can definitely see the appeal to people who are into oldschool gaming.