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{Olde School} Rate my evocativeness!

Started by StormBringer, September 04, 2008, 02:59:01 PM

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StormBringer

I am getting some OSRIC material together, and like the old Dragon Magazine article, I thought some alternate paladin information would be fun.  I am calling them Exemplars, as they would be the pinnacle of their alignment/ideology.

Ok, I didn't do for a strict interpretation for alignment, so these might seem a bit skewed, but I am going to list the level titles, and you give me your best guess as to which alignment they belong to.

1:
Temperare
Disciplinae
Formare
Mandatum
Interdictore
Disponere
Praetor
Imperatore
Equites Ordinatum
               
2:
                                              Shield
Aegis
Palisade
Rampart
Bulwark
Bastion
Warden
Champion
Sentinel

3:
                                              Immolator
Korban
Moloch
Hecatomb
Bloodletter
Executioner
Slayer
Butcher
Master of the Abattoir

4:
                                              Castigator
Lustral
Expiator
Parma
Hammer
Flail
Scourge
Purifier
Inquisitor
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

ttagxamm

I'm gonna say

1. LG [or LN?]
2. CG [but would probably work with NG]
3. CE
4. LE

Do I get a no-prize?
Running: Encounter Critical, online at God City Sandbox
Playing: 2e, Pathfinder
Blogging: Music, Games, Bad Poetry at  Malevolent & Benign

StormBringer

Quote from: ttagxamm;244287I'm gonna say

1. LG [or LN?]
2. CG [but would probably work with NG]
3. CE
4. LE

Do I get a no-prize?
I will award prizes after a few guesses.  :)
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

Premier

My guess would be:

1 - LN
2- I guess NG. Chaotic Good would probably involve level titles with more emphasis on freedom of movement and independent action like "Outrider" or "Free agent".
3 - CE
4 - LE
Obvious troll is obvious. RIP, Bill.

Vaecrius

#4
1 LE, because Rome = Satan
2 LG, since they tend to connote protecting something (presumably good).
3 CE, since they tend to connote destroying something without saying that it's evil.
4 LG, since--actually, no, LN. All stick no carrot.


EDIT: Something else on 2 that I forgot to mention: everything but "Shield" and "Champion" has some kind of military connotation to it (the Aegis being the shield of Athena doesn't really say anything chaotic). I'd almost said LN.

StormBringer

Interesting.

I appreciate the feedback!
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

StormBringer

No one else wants to guess, eh?  Ok, the official answers are:

1. LN
2. CG
3. CE
4. LE

I've still got a few to puzzle out, and I will probably end up switching a few titles around, not to mention putting the special ability packages together.

Congratulations, all, I will send you your prizes!

Stay tuned, I will have some more ideas to mull over in this space.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

Spike

I must hear how you assosiate CG alignments with that particular list of titles. I could go into a serious cut down of why I think its wonky, but I'd much rather hear your explanation before I tried to promulagate (the word of the day...) my own perspective.
For you the day you found a minor error in a Post by Spike and forced him to admit it, it was the greatest day of your internet life.  For me it was... Tuesday.

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StormBringer

Quote from: Spike;245479I must hear how you assosiate CG alignments with that particular list of titles. I could go into a serious cut down of why I think its wonky, but I'd much rather hear your explanation before I tried to promulagate (the word of the day...) my own perspective.
More of a loose interpretation of CG than anything else.  There is more of a theme, rather than a strict adherence to a cohesive progression.  I mean, it's for Olde School stuff, so it doesn't need to have a regimented structure, necessarily.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

Spike

Quote from: StormBringer;245481More of a loose interpretation of CG than anything else.  There is more of a theme, rather than a strict adherence to a cohesive progression.  I mean, it's for Olde School stuff, so it doesn't need to have a regimented structure, necessarily.

That's no answer.  

Thematically, many, if not all of the words, you chose for titles of your "chaotic good' Paladins are bastions of stability, staidness... order. Law, in other words.

A shield is an inflexible defender. A defender is reliable.  Ramparts and Palisades are walls and walls are a means of isolating order (cities, fortresses, etc...) from disorder (wilderness, barbarians, the wolf at the door...).

A warden is the ruler of a prison, the man who keeps criminals... lawbreakers... under control.  

Even your Aegis choice: Athena was the bearer of the Aegis, and she was the goddess of wisdom, the strategic war, compared to Ares the god of brutal, savage war.  Order, stability vs disorder and chaos. The Aegis itself was the severed head of the monster, the beast, that which is opposed to peace and tranquility, slain and rendered into a servant of order. The beast itself, the Medusa, turned men to stone, calcification, order, stability. What is more chaotic? Living moving flesh or inflexible, solid stone. The Aegis retained that ability, now slaved to the goddess of wisdom, and to Men.

And so on. I grasp that you wanted a thematic selection of names, but possibly inadvertantly you selected virtually an entire pantheon of words that will trip 'law and order' beacons in the reader, which is the opposite of your stated intent.

Thus I ask again: What made you select THOSE WORDS as representative of Chaos? Good or evil is unimportant here, a seperate axis, if you will.
For you the day you found a minor error in a Post by Spike and forced him to admit it, it was the greatest day of your internet life.  For me it was... Tuesday.

For the curious: Apparently, in person, I sound exactly like the Youtube Character The Nostalgia Critic.   I have no words.

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StormBringer

Quote from: Spike;245524That's no answer.  

Thematically, many, if not all of the words, you chose for titles of your "chaotic good' Paladins are bastions of stability, staidness... order. Law, in other words.
Uh, no.  Defense.  Mostly on an individual level, with a vague nod to increasing size or strength of the defense as level increases, but that wasn't an over-riding concern that informed the whole process.

The low level titles are individual protections, certainly, while the higher levels represent more of a larger scale protection.

QuoteThe Aegis itself was the severed head of the monster, the beast, that which is opposed to peace and tranquility, slain and rendered into a servant of order.
Not really.

aegis      
 
     1: a shield or breastplate emblematic of majesty that was associated with Zeus and Athena

While the medusa's head was the primary decoration, it certainly wasn't the primary reason for the aegis.
Quote from: WikipediaLocating the Aegis
Greeks of the Classical age always detected that there was something alien and uncanny about the aegis. It was supposed by Euripides  that the Gorgon was the original possessor of this goatskin, yet the usual understanding is that the Gorgoneion was added to the aegis, a votive gift from a grateful Perseus.

There is also the origin myth that represents the ægis as a fire-breathing chthonic monster similar to the Chimera, which was slain and flayed by Athena, who afterwards wore its skin as a cuirass (Diodorus Siculus iii. 70), or as a chlamys. The Douris cup shows that the aegis was represented exactly as the skin of the guardian serpent, with its scales clearly delineated.

John Tzetzes says that it was the skin of the monstrous giant Pallas whom Athena overcame and whose name she attached to her own.

In a late rendering by Hyginus, (Poetical Astronomy ii. 13) Zeus is said to have used the skin of the goat Amalthea (aigis "goat-skin") which suckled him in Crete, as a shield when he went forth to do battle against the titans.
It's really just a breast plate.  You had to dig pretty far down to get your interpretation.  So, overall, 'defender of the people' trope.

QuoteAnd so on. I grasp that you wanted a thematic selection of names, but possibly inadvertantly you selected virtually an entire pantheon of words that will trip 'law and order' beacons in the reader, which is the opposite of your stated intent.
It's possible it might, but with the text regarding the class, I think it will be pretty clear.  Warden, for example, has several other meanings, the primary being guardian or keeper.  A couple others have to do with enforcing regulations, I'll grant.  I'm not terribly concerned about a strict deconstruction along the lines of what you have presented from most players.

First edition fighters were swashbucklers and myrmidons, first edition magic-users were necromancers, conjurers, and enchanters.  I don't think too many people were concerned that their myrmidon would suddenly need to start using a spear, or their enchanter was proscribed from casting a fireball.  Seems like a bit of over-analysis to me, unless you were demonstrating some point or another with the analysis itself.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

Spike

Well, you DID say 'rate my evocativeness' in the title.

Well, if you wish to avoid the analysis or deflect it, then here: a gut reaction of myself and the two or three other people who posted guesses (I was a late show) all rated your CG names as some form of Lawful, thus, I rate, for that one catagory, a 'Not-Satisfactory'. The names do evoke, in at least three (four?I'm too lazy to scroll up and count...) out of three (or four?) posters lawful traits, not chaotic.

A word by word analysis isn't particularly necessary, from you, nor is it particularly helpful when you respond to less than half my word specific critiques with less than stunning counterpoints.

In fantasy with strong law/chaos axis (moorcock), and for the most part supported by common perception of the terms, chaos is changing, dynamic, active. Law is static, frozen even, staid.  This is true even when law is also code for Good, and Chaos is seen as evil, though Chaos's change is seen as corrosive or corruptive, the staid nature of law is peace and comfort, order and assurance.

You have managed to pick words, for the worse, where six out of nine are inanimate objects. Things. Static.  Of the remaining three, all are essentially duties, upholders of order even, though the definition you might have INTENDED might be different than the first one that comes to mind. Evocativeness is all about what comes to mind.  Only the Champion term could be regarded as, at worst, neutral in this regard.  I've already covered Warden...

Sentinel: A static guard, or perhaps watching a specific pattern. Sentinel has been applied to buildings and natural phenomenon for a reason, its a solid term for a generally solid thing. A man standing sentinel is not pictured as moving. In an opposed pair it's opposite is a raider, the embodiment of chaos, one who comes and goes, seemingly at random leavign destruction and change in his wake. the Sentinel opposes him, stands between the raider and the people.

You don't like my analysis? you don't have to buy it, you can explain it away. You want to deny my point then explain why 100% of respondents picked law for those names instead of chaos and what that says about teh evocativeness of the names.
For you the day you found a minor error in a Post by Spike and forced him to admit it, it was the greatest day of your internet life.  For me it was... Tuesday.

For the curious: Apparently, in person, I sound exactly like the Youtube Character The Nostalgia Critic.   I have no words.

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Vaecrius

If y'all don't mind, I'm gonna try a counterexample for CG. :D

Rebel
Warrior
Gadfly
Champion
Challenger
Pioneer
Revolutionary
Eleutherios
Immanent Eschaton

StormBringer

Quote from: Spike;245588You don't like my analysis? you don't have to buy it, you can explain it away. You want to deny my point then explain why 100% of respondents picked law for those names instead of chaos and what that says about teh evocativeness of the names.
Well, actually, 66% of them guessed Chaotic or Neutral.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

Spike

Hrm.. I don't remember seeing thebouxxiromumin or whatever that poster's name was before... how odd?

Still, 66% (or 75% counting myself) not guessing chaotic is still bad marks.
For you the day you found a minor error in a Post by Spike and forced him to admit it, it was the greatest day of your internet life.  For me it was... Tuesday.

For the curious: Apparently, in person, I sound exactly like the Youtube Character The Nostalgia Critic.   I have no words.

[URL=https: