We've had some serious minion problems. It was bad when we had a sorcerer, druid, and ranger - familiar, two companion animals, and whatever had been summoned or convinced to aid us - but when the Poison Dusk Dragon Shaman found a rod which commanded and summoned 5d6 hit dice per day of the goblinoids of your choice...which didn't ever disappear, things got very, very troubled. [Then we bought and freed some tens of thousands of slaves, but we expected that to be a problem in combat.]

I would definitely like to see a better minion handling system.

I regularly run battles in 3.5 with dozens of low level bad guys.  I remember one battle that involved an ogre, 8 gnoll archers, and 62 kobolds coming from eight different directions.  That battle took about an hour to run, mostly because of an obscuring mist spell one of the players cast, and the obscene number of concealment rolls that triggered.

Another battle involved 1 x 5th level goblin priest (king),  4 x 3rd level goblin fighters (bodyguards), and 50 x 1st Goblin warriors.  That fight lasted forty-five minutes, mostly due to a lot of role-playing between the king and the party.

In both cases I broke the hordes up into groups of 5 for initiative, and didn't track negative HPS for any of the monsters (which I normally do) but other than that I ran it RAW.  No problem with either battle.

I really don't see a need for the minion class creature.

Engine: I hear you, but what Stuart is talking about is very different.  He's talking about "minion class creatures" from 4E, while you're talking about henchmen, hirelings, cohorts and companions.  Thos things are always big time drags, since players (in my experience) take MUCH MUCH longer to select their actions.

Quote from: StuartNo, I mean I thought it was in OD&D, B/X, or AD&D.  I thought Elves were faster than humans, and Dwarves were faster than hobbits. I could be wrong though.

It's implicit in OD&D and 1E AD&D -- elves' base move is 15", humans' (and half-elves' and half-orcs') base move is 12", dwarves' and hobbits' (and gnomes') base move is 9" -- but not actually spelled out anywhere in plain black & white, so many people didn't realize it and just had everybody's base move be 12", which is, IIRC, also the official rule in B/X D&D and 2E AD&D (only expressed as 120 feet (yards) instead of 12").

Quote from: JackalopeIn both cases I broke the hordes up into groups of 5 for initiative, and didn't track negative HPS for any of the monsters (which I normally do) but other than that I ran it RAW.  No problem with either battle.

Doesn't that still indicate something like 100 attack rolls every round? If not, how do you abstract the masses of attacks?

Quote from: JackalopeEngine: I hear you, but what Stuart is talking about is very different.  He's talking about "minion class creatures" from 4E, while you're talking about henchmen, hirelings, cohorts and companions.  Thos things are always big time drags, since players (in my experience) take MUCH MUCH longer to select their actions.

Ah, I see. Well, I need a rule for henchmen, hirelings, cohorts and companions. Got one?

Quote from: Rophan...the Eladrin as a PC race...

Is this really an idea new to 4e?  I mean, Eladrin => Elf looks pretty much like the old High Elf/Wood Elf or Gray Elf/Sylvan Elf split.  Aside from the teleportation power, I'm just not grokking the difference (and why elves were split into two distinct PC races).

!i!

To be honest, I've never been an elf fan in the first place, but I do like the idea of them being a bit more mystical, more fairey like.  My experience with elves either played or in books is that they have pointy ears, hang out in forests, bake cookies, and think they are better than everyone else.  When I think of elves that I've seen in some of the mythology I used to read, they were more magical, and dangerous - magic personified.  What I've read about 4e eladrin doesn't quite do it for me, but it's a step in the right direction towards what I'm looking for.

Quote from: Engine...but when the Poison Dusk Dragon Shaman found a rod which commanded and summoned 5d6 hit dice per day of the goblinoids of your choice...which didn't ever disappear, things got very, very troubled.

Well three times a week , anyways.

Quote from: StuartI like the idea of minions and not keeping track of their hit points.  Using that in earlier editions I'd just say that low HD/hp monsters just go down in one hit and not worry about rolling for damage and keeping track of all those numbers.  Just keep things moving.

(It reminds me of Warhammer -- but that's not a bad thing)

Here's my question whenever the "mook" issue comes up:

Can the characters be considered "mooks" when facing a muh tougher opponent? That is, if they stumble upon Orcus at 3rd Level, will one strike kill them regardless of HP?

And please, no dissertations about how Orcus would do X amount of damage on his lowest strike and since a third level character, no matter the build, could not have more than X HP - that's not the point and you (generic) know it....

Quote from: EngineDoesn't that still indicate something like 100 attack rolls every round? If not, how do you abstract the masses of attacks?

No, it's more like ten rolls at a time.  It's pretty simple if you're used to wargaming.

Let's take the kobold fight as an example, from the DCC "Legacy of the Savage Kings." (7-9)  Excellent module, very fun stuff.  

The players walk across the drawbridge of an abandoned (they think) castle in a swamp.  As they reach the center of the courtyard, the drawbridge begings to rise and six gnoll archers appear atop the gatehouse and begin firing, causing the players to scatter.  An ogre comes roaring out of the inner keep, followed by thirty kobolds.  More kobolds rush from their hiding places, in four groups of five.  Now the players are surrounded.  The remaining 12 are hiding in parapets that overlook the courtyard, and armed with light crossbows.  Four parapets with 3 kobolds each.

The thirty kobolds becomes groups A-F (5 kobolds per group).  The four groups of five become G, H, I, and J, the archers become K, L, M, and N.  The gnolls become A (3), B (3), and C (2, operating the drawbridge).  The orge gets his own init.  I use cut-out cardstock markers for the kobolds, each number A0-A4, B0-4, ..., N0-2.  Minis for the gnolls and the ogre.  We roll initiative.  I've got 18 units to think of.  Luckily they are kobolds being bullied into combat by gnolls and ogres, so they don't fight smart.  Tactics are simple: rush, surround, assist to kill.  I move each group of kobolds as one single unit, and surround a player.  He gets his AOOs, maybe kills one of them.  More if he's built for AOOs, or has Great Cleave.  Let's assume all five survive to surround the foe.  Each readies as he gets into position.  Once all are in position, they begin their attack.  I roll a handful of d20s, four of one color, one of an alternate color, and a d4 for the kobold's shortsword.  The first four are all assists, they only need to hit AC 10.  Since my kobolds have a BAB of +1, I need a 9.  Odds say I get 3 successes.  That's three assists for +6, now I check the fifth die.  It's a 10, I add the BAB of +1 and the +6 for a total of 17, ask my player "Does a 17 hit?"  He says "Yep." and I check the D4 and say "3 damage."  Then I move onto my next unit.

Since the kobolds have like 3 hp, they go down really fast to a 7th level party.  The party had a beguiler tossing out Deep Slumbers (which has the potential to take down 20 of the fuckers at a time), and a duskblade throwing down with Burning Hands, I don't think the kobolds lasted more than five rounds (and that was mostly the artillerist).  That's okay though, because they're just there to distract the players and suck away resources from the fight with the ogre.  And they can't be ignored, because by exploiting the assist attack rule, they remain a credible threat despite their relative ineffectiveness.

At higher levels, kobolds can be replaced with slightly tougher fare, such as skeletons, or fast zombies (love me some fast zombies), or my favorite little pudfuckers since the 1E Monster Manual: the Manes demon.  1 HD with a shit-ton of immunities that requires magic weapons to kill?  God those things rock.  You can drop thirty of them in the middle of a town, and they'll kill 3/4ths of the citizenry before the townsfolk get one of them, but a few high level adventurers can mop the floor with them.  Great fodder for adventure.

QuoteAh, I see. Well, I need a rule for henchmen, hirelings, cohorts and companions. Got one?

Who runs them?  You or the player they are associated with?  Sometimes it can be faster to run them yourself, and give them a set tactic they always use (a cohort plays shield guard to the character they lead, the animal companion always attacks the nearest leftmost opponent, etc.).

Here's what I'd like to adapt back to 3E: The idea of power sources, healing surges, second wind, tiers (I would go with levels 1-9 for dungeon adventuring - swords and sorcery, 9-18 for wilderness exploration - high fantasy, 19-27 for domain management - wuxia, and 28-36 for epic endgame quests - demigods), using the highest of two ability scores for saves and armor class, more feats, more ability score improvements, balancing the classes (my preference is to give non-spellcasters abilities that allow them to compete alongside spellcasters without basically making them martial wizards - my ideas tend towards scaleable feats, high-level skill effects, and high-level uses of mundane equipment), ongoing damage effects, increased mobility when attacking, forced movement due to successful attacks, mitigating save or suck and save or die, and more balanced HP, BAB, and save progressions.

There's probably more I would adapt but we'll see...

Quote from: DeadUematsusnip

So you'll be playing 4e I take it.

I'm waaay ambivalent, but your enthusiasm is refreshing.

I'll try a game and see if I like it. If I don't, I'm going to work on my own Perfect Hybrid Edition of D&D.

Quote from: James J SkachHere's my question whenever the "mook" issue comes up:

Can the characters be considered "mooks" when facing a muh tougher opponent? That is, if they stumble upon Orcus at 3rd Level, will one strike kill them regardless of HP?

And please, no dissertations about how Orcus would do X amount of damage on his lowest strike and since a third level character, no matter the build, could not have more than X HP - that's not the point and you (generic) know it....

It's a big deal to players when their characters are taken out of the game, so I can't see the benefit of speeding that up by not rolling for damage.

Not rolling for damage in a fight against 14 Kobolds... that's where you can speed the game up in a way that most players won't object to.

Quote from: StuartIt's a big deal to players when their characters are taken out of the game, so I can't see the benefit of speeding that up by not rolling for damage.

Not rolling for damage in a fight against 14 Kobolds... that's where you can speed the game up in a way that most players won't object to.

Please note: No mention of speed in the question.

Quote from: James J SkachPlease note: No mention of speed in the question.

Making the game faster / easier is the reason to use Mook / Minion rules.

It all depends on what you want.  Abstract <---> Detail