Quote from: WarthurHow's that for an objective argument as to why D&D is better than DitV?

I am not sure that this is as objective as you think it is. Actually it is purely based on your situation. Let me clear that up a little.
I live in germany. When you meet a non rpg gamer here and tell them about your hobby and say something like "it's like D&D only with spaceships" when you describe some sci fi RPG you get blank stares. Not because you spoke english, but because D&D is not very known around here.
Now if you were saying "it's like DSA only with spaceships" you would be understood.
When you walk into a RPG/tabletop shop here of middling size, then it will have about 3-6 different RPG systems on the shelves. Usually not one of them will be D&D. You will get DSA, shadowrun, CoC, Vampire and 7th sea.

Same goes for a lot of assumptions you americans take for granted, like for example the wargame roots of the hobby. For us germans, our RPG hobby started with DSA which had nothing to do with wargames, was not done by wargamers but usually fantasy authors and never even mentioned miniatures.

So, is D&D in the USA better than D&D in germany?
And what about france? They play totally different games often with high a high grade of "historical realism". And so on, and so on.

Quote from: SaphimI am not sure that this is as objective as you think it is. Actually it is purely based on your situation. Let me clear that up a little.
I live in germany. When you meet a non rpg gamer here and tell them about your hobby and say something like "it's like D&D only with spaceships" when you describe some sci fi RPG you get blank stares. Not because you spoke english, but because D&D is not very known around here.
Now if you were saying "it's like DSA only with spaceships" you would be understood.
When you walk into a RPG/tabletop shop here of middling size, then it will have about 3-6 different RPG systems on the shelves. Usually not one of them will be D&D. You will get DSA, shadowrun, CoC, Vampire and 7th sea.

Yes, but in most markets "D&D in space" will work, whereas I can't think of any territory where "Dogs In the Vineyard in space" will work better than "D&D in space", Germany included.

QuoteSame goes for a lot of assumptions you americans take for granted, like for example the wargame roots of the hobby. For us germans, our RPG hobby started with DSA which had nothing to do with wargames, was not done by wargamers but usually fantasy authors and never even mentioned miniatures.

Except they presumably didn't invent DSA without reference to any other RPGs; they presumably were influenced by D&D, T&T, Runequest, and whichever other fantasy RPGs caught their eye. You can't blithely pretend that there was no influence from D&D, and thus no wargame influence.

Of course I can't and neither did I. DSA was an attempt to create a german D&D clone. Though the people doing it were no wargamers so the wargaming aspect got de-emphasized a lot while the "let's pretend" aspect was emphasized.

That is all I am saying.

Quote from: SaphimOf course I can't and neither did I. DSA was an attempt to create a german D&D clone. Though the people doing it were no wargamers so the wargaming aspect got de-emphasized a lot while the "let's pretend" aspect was emphasized.

How would they know what parts to de-emphasise (aside from obvious wargame elements like miniatures) if they were not wargamers? As Sett has frequently declared on here, what people in the RPG scene call "wargaming" has only the loosest resemblance to what early-1970s wargaming was actually like.

Quote from: WarthurHow would they know what parts to de-emphasise (aside from obvious wargame elements like miniatures) if they were not wargamers? As Sett has frequently declared on here, what people in the RPG scene call "wargaming" has only the loosest resemblance to what early-1970s wargaming was actually like.

How would I know how they did it? I was not present. I only know that the wargaming elements did not stick while we had huge articles about roleplaying, as in acting out the character just for the sake of doing it very early on.
And I know that they are not wargamers, because they are still around.

Anything more would be a speculation.

Quote from: SaphimI shall try.
Pundit said that a couple of hundred copies sold doesn't make what Vincent Baker does good games.

Because prior to that someone on this thread suggested that Baker's couple of hundred sales meant that he WAS making "good games".

QuoteNothing of that. A good game is one that you enjoy. There is nothing more to it.
D&D is sold more often than any other game and therefore probably enjoyed by more people than any other game.
Does that make it better than other games?

Of course it does.
It doesn't make it the "best game ever" or the best game for you, but the fact that it has sold millions means that, OBJECTIVELY, as a game, as genius of design, as far as understanding what people want, as far as being successful in general and lasting the ages, it is clearly vastly better than any Forge game is or likely ever will be.

RPGPundit

Quote from: SaphimSo, is D&D in the USA better than D&D in germany?
And what about france? They play totally different games often with high a high grade of "historical realism". And so on, and so on.

Dude, no one gives a fuck about Germany or France.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditDude, no one gives a fuck about Germany or France.

RPGPundit

I care about France.

I'll give you Germany.

Where's the love for Germany?

Right here's some love for Germany.

Quote from: SaphimI live in germany. When you meet a non rpg gamer here and tell them about your hobby and say something like "it's like D&D only with spaceships" when you describe some sci fi RPG you get blank stares. Not because you spoke english, but because D&D is not very known around here.
Now if you were saying "it's like DSA only with spaceships" you would be understood.
When you walk into a RPG/tabletop shop here of middling size, then it will have about 3-6 different RPG systems on the shelves. Usually not one of them will be D&D. You will get DSA, shadowrun, CoC, Vampire and 7th sea.

Same goes for a lot of assumptions you americans take for granted, like for example the wargame roots of the hobby. For us germans, our RPG hobby started with DSA which had nothing to do with wargames, was not done by wargamers but usually fantasy authors and never even mentioned miniatures.

So, is D&D in the USA better than D&D in germany?
And what about france? They play totally different games often with high a high grade of "historical realism". And so on, and so on.

I've always been surprised by the success Das schwarze Auge has had in Germany, even above D&D, it would be interesting to know why.

An American gamer after reading this might think that people in Europe like artsy :rolleyes:  games, but it depends of every country. In my home country, Spain, D&D3 is king. No doubt about this. I don't live any longer in Poland, but I got the impression that D&D was doing well there. It depends.

Regarding France, is it true that D&D is not the main seller there? I thought the situation of D&D in France was similar to the one here.

In rapidly decreasing order of relevance, Germany gave us Durer, Beethoven, me myself, Goethe, Marlene Dietrich, Martin Luther, Settembrini, a million billion clueless bottom feeders, Boris Becker, more bottom feeders, still more, and Saphim.

So is the bottom food good in Germany?

Quote from: RPGPunditOf course it does.
It doesn't make it the "best game ever" or the best game for you, but the fact that it has sold millions means that, OBJECTIVELY, as a game, as genius of design, as far as understanding what people want, as far as being successful in general and lasting the ages, it is clearly vastly better than any Forge game is or likely ever will be.

RPGPundit

According to that logic micheal jackson is the best musician ever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_albums_worldwide

I beg to differ.
Thriller is just the most sold album. D&D is just the most sold game. The numbers don't say anything above that.

Have some mustard with that.

Quote from: AosSo is the bottom food good in Germany?

It depends on what you like. It's certainly very nourishing.