Quote from: jeff37923Why is there a trend of d20/DnD haters becoming internet martyrs, happy in the martyrdom brought on by their hatred?

Martyrs for a good cause.. I think. :raise:

EDIT: This was MEANT to be a joke!

Quote from: LancerYou speak as if a person's tastes remain rigid throughout their lifetime, Elliot.

No, I don't mean to imply that. Rather, they're in the best position to decide when to experiment, and I can't believe people aren't aware of the existence of alternatives. In this environment it's great to make it easier to learn about and try out new stuff, but telling people they should  spend time and effort to deal with a problem that doesn't exist, as far as they're concerned, is a conversational non-starter.

Quote from: walkerpBoth Lancer and I base our position that people can be not aware of better things out there, because both of us were those people.  I played 3.x for quite a while and had a really good time most of the time, but eventually I just bumped up against what were for me limitations of the system.  I started to look around, eventually found other stuff.  When I introduced that other stuff to the group, they quite enjoyed it.  But none of them would have looked around, if it wasn't for me.  I think they now feel that they have more gaming options than they did before.  During the peak of our 3.x playing, we would discuss other genres but a sort of steampunk-modified D&D was about as far as we could conceive.  Playing a present-day game just didn't even come into our minds as feasible.  I think there are a lot of gamers like this today.  It's not presumptious to say that if they were given the taste of something different, they might then want to try other different things.

It's like food or movies or books.  Sure you might be happy with burgers or blockbusters or Tom Clancy but you might be quite psyched to check out some other culture's food or a good hong kong movie or Desmond Bagley.  You may still enjoy a burger but now you have more choices, which you didn't have before.

Walker, I think you've been fairly good about this stuff in both of the discussions, with few exceptions.

I'm of the opinion that others will find their favorite game on their own if D&D whatever edition isn't doing it for them. All I can do is show off my extensive collection of books and make them jealous.

Your situation? Possibly sucks. But really telling us about it isn't always strictly relevant when discussing more specific aspects of the system or metasetting, which is what I personally come online to discuss (and more recently some AP stuff)... even if now and again I do let myself get dragged into politics. Like now.

And political discussions being substituted for mechanical or setting discussions happens to other things than 3e. Shit, have you seen the Pundit work? Exalted, Nobilis, SotC, whatever. It's all fair game.

Lancer, you ain't off the hook. The politics are still irrelevant to the topic of the system or the setting, and on top of that, if you have a group playing your preferred game you've got no excuse to be holding on to this grudge. It's bitching for bitching's sake.

It's one thing to say "attacks of opportunity add something I don't need" or to say the same for feats or any number of other things. It's another thing to attribute people's preferences to ignorance.

For example I could say "Hey Koltar, point buy systems aren't my thing. I find them difficult and they model characters in more detail than I need." I don't think that would be offensive.

I could also say "Fuckin' GURPS man. What kind of gear-headed mathlete do you need to be to play in that system? Robots and GURPS players have no souls." That? Might piss a few folks off.

What is this?

The final bloody showdown between the 3e/d20 lovers and the 3e/d20 haters?

Man, when grubman next sees this thread...

Talk about massive derail...This is too freakin' hilarious.

Quote from: LancerMartyrs for a good cause.. I think. :raise:

Not in my view.

Here, let me explain myself. With the market dominance of the d20 system, a weird little meme came into being and began to be played out on just about every gaming forum I visited. The meme goes like this:

Poster X wants to play a RPG they like, but when they go to the local gaming group or FLGS all they find are d20 system players - who may or may not be interested in playing a different game than the one they are already playing. So Poster X then starts to insult and degrade the d20 players for playing a d20 game since it is not His/Her Favorite Game that they brought to play. It doesn't occur to Poster X that by insulting the local player base, that group of potential players may not be interested in ever playing with someone who has just insulted them - thus destroying any chance of getting some players.

Often, its the approach used that assures no players for Your Favorite Game and not the differences in the game system itself.

So, when I start seeing people rant and rave about how those evil d20 players won't look at this Other Great Game System, I have to wonder about the approach taken previously to get players to try this Other Great Game System.

Really, there are reasons why people like d20 and want to stick with it. Its a versatile system, and I know a lot of players who are unwilling to invest the time to learn a new game system when the one they are using works just fine for them. After all, they want to go ahead and play when they have free time, not learn something different - and there is nothing wrong with that.

Jeff, except I am not insulting anybody. People may be offended by what I have to say (i.e not like my opinions), but I am not insulting or degrading the 3.x/d20 players.

Quote from: LancerJeff, except I am not insulting anybody. People may be offended by what I have to say, but I am not insult or degrading the 3.x/d20 players.

No, you're just saying that being a martyr for the cause of Hating d20 is a good thing.

Quote from: jeff37923No, you're just saying that being a martyr for the cause of Hating d20 is a good thing.

Dude, it was a joke. Did you not see the smiley?

 Laugh, smile, or whatever suits your fancy.


This thread just gets sillier and sillier..

I have an off-topic question, now that we've beaten this one to death.

Lancer, WTF is your handle "Lancer", but you use a picture of Max for your avatar?

This has been bugging me for a while.

Quote from: Elliot WilenI have an off-topic question, now that we've beaten this one to death.

Lancer, WTF is your handle "Lancer", but you use a picture of Max for your avatar?

This has been bugging me for a while.

hehe.

Good question. Lancer is the name of the hero in one of my Genesis games. He is the Captain of the sleek and powerful Hellfire CNCS1 space fighter! Yeah, it was a shooter that I hold dear to my heart. Nothing to do with RPGs. There is no picture of him, though, so I had to look at other options.

I am a big Robotech fan, and I like Max. This site doesn't accept images of a larger size, though, so I had trouble using other options I had in mind. I may decide to update it to something else more appropriate.

And I have a feeling you like rabbits. Call it a hunch.

Quote from: LancerWhat is this?

The final bloody showdown between the 3e/d20 lovers and the 3e/d20 haters?

Man, when grubman next sees this thread...

Talk about massive derail...This is too freakin' hilarious.

Man, hate D20 all you want, but leave the fans out of it.

Or rather...

...Don't hate the player; hate the game

honestly?  guys?  as an avowed d20 / D&D hater I have to say that D&D is too mediocre to get into the top 100 games that suck.  Sorry, but I'm pretty sure we can come up with at least 100 games that suck more than D&D.

That could be 4e's marketing catch phrase "Now in the top 100 sucky games list!"  But I doubt they'll manage it.

With contenders like KABAL and Intersteller Elite Combat and Meta Scape and Arenson's Adventures In Fantasy, D&D just doesn't suck enough to make the list.

Don't forget FATAL..

This was interesting BTW. Talk about utter sucktitude.
http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Worst_RPGs_ever

Quote from: LancerAnd I have a feeling you like rabbits. Call it a hunch.

You'd be correct.:bunny:

There are people who are AFRAID of regular gaming, because they SUCK at it. They are pretty keen on telling why other people´s games suck.