So, while Linda and I were waiting around, we kicked the tires on V2, specifically the roll under combat. Linda's comment "Yeah, it works and rolling over under 25 is the same as rolling over 15 on a d20 but it doesn't feel good to roll under a 25 on percentiles".

1. So, experiences with roll under combat?

2. How do you feel about rolling under; i.e. rolling low for combat?

Thanks,
Bill

It doesn't matter. Rolling low isn't inherently less exciting for me. I get that it bothers some people. But I've never understood that.

Two minor issues:

Bonuses often wind up being subtractions and penalties additions. That's counter intuitive.

In some set ups, you wind up with floor effects.

Maybe it's because I grew up with golf and The Price is Right but rolling low never bothered me.

To date, my longest running favorite system, BRP, uses a roll-under percentile system.  I've always thought of it as something like the percentile score being a land stake that you've claimed -- as long as you roll inside your own land, you're golden.  Beneficial mods are ways of keeping the dice closer to home instead of encouraging them to go wild.

!i!

Quote from: NicephorusTwo minor issues:

Bonuses often wind up being subtractions and penalties additions. That's counter intuitive.

In some set ups, you wind up with floor effects.

I was reading Gurps (4e) the other day at lunch and this is one of those things that always jumps out at me. That a positive assessment is actually a negative adjustment. In 4e they handled this by adding the bonus, instead, to the target number.

IMHO, this breaks one of the little paths in my head that applies situational modifiers to the target but character-centric modifiers to the roll. But that's just me.

Quote from: NicephorusTwo minor issues:

Bonuses often wind up being subtractions and penalties additions. That's counter intuitive.

In some set ups, you wind up with floor effects.

Well, in terms of V2 we have open ended rolling so we should be o.k. on this front.

Bill

Sort of like what Ian says. But I don't find it effortless to get there so it isn't easy for me to switch back and forth. So I'm ok with it if it is used consistently in the system.

I have no problem with a roll-under system.  Negative modifiers for positive conditions don't bother me, either.  However, that might be a side-effect of many years of playing Squad Leader, which uses a lower-is-better system, negative modifiers for positive conditions and all.  That said, I do prefer adjusting the target number over a drm for roll-under, but it all comes out in the wash.

I don't like roll under systems.  It's purely psychological, but I just prefer it if a big huge number means SUCCESS! and not FAIL!

Is 4E going to a roll under system?

Quote from: HinterWelt1. So, experiences with roll under combat?

Every percentile system that I've ever used was roll-under.

Quote from: HinterWelt2. How do you feel about rolling under; i.e. rolling low for combat?

Normally I prefer roll-over but like roll-under for percentiles because a roll equal-or-under percentile system makes the percentage transparent and I think it's pretty naturally to think of a roll being in the 5th percentile (05) being better than a roll in the 95th percentile (95).  Basically, think of the percentile roll as a percentage where a 5% chance of success requires a result of 5% or less.

Quote from: HinterWeltSo, while Linda and I were waiting around, we kicked the tires on V2, specifically the roll under combat. Linda's comment "Yeah, it works and rolling over under 25 is the same as rolling over 15 on a d20 but it doesn't feel good to roll under a 25 on percentiles".

1. So, experiences with roll under combat?

2. How do you feel about rolling under; i.e. rolling low for combat?

Thanks,
Bill

1. I played several games with roll under combat: RuneQuest, Stormbringer, GURPS, etc.

2. Very good. That said, I like most resolution systems, roll under, roll over, dice pools, etc.

Roll under and roll over mathematically are the same, the diferences are psychological. To some people roll under feels wrong because to them, the more they score the better. To others, roll over is not as intuitive as roll under, because with roll under you compare the result of the dice with your score, no way it can get easier than that. It's not rational.

Quote from: NicephorusTwo minor issues:

Bonuses often wind up being subtractions and penalties additions. That's counter intuitive.

In some set ups, you wind up with floor effects.

The counter to that is about what you're bonusing.

Add a +1 to the SKILL and not the DIE and you still have a +1.

Same effect, different context and still roll-under.


I think roll under gets only slightly weird on camparitive rolls. Usually it's by what you beat your own skill by vs. theirs. But that's easy once you get used to it.

Quote from: KrakaJakThe counter to that is about what you're bonusing.

Add a +1 to the SKILL and not the DIE and you still have a +1.

Same effect, different context and still roll-under.


I think roll under gets only slightly weird on camparitive rolls. Usually it's by what you beat your own skill by vs. theirs. But that's easy once you get used to it.

This may be the way I try to handle it.

In V1, this is what I have done for year. Basically, in skill checks, you would a +x to your skill check meaning if you had a 40% you would add x and roll under.

For the combat in V2, I have the goal to keep my Defense based on stats but now add a skill component to it. So, we get (AGL+CON+Dodge Skill)/6. A person rolls their Weapon Use (40-100%) - opponent's Defense. This gives us any where form a -20 all the way upto a nearly unmodified chance. I might consider dividing by 10 for Defense instead and make hits a bit more common.

Anyway, yeah, I know it is in her head but it raised my eyebrows a bit since I am like some of you guys and it is all the same to me. I just see a chance to hit.:deflated:

Thanks,
Bill

Quote from: KrakaJakI think roll under gets only slightly weird on camparitive rolls. Usually it's by what you beat your own skill by vs. theirs. But that's easy once you get used to it.

My favourite method (if using a roll under system at all) is to use the actual die roll as "success rate". A low roll is close to a minimal success, with a higher roll being better - as long as it does not beat the skill rank.

I have spent the twenty-six years I have been playing role-playing games using roll-under systems [RuneQuest and HeroQuest].

So it feels odd to me to roll-over.  :eek:


Also when people say things like "He must of rolled a natural 20 to get a date with her" or similar I think about it differently - like he must of really blown it!