Quote from: HinterWeltAre they making money? Are they donating time? What is their quality like?

I'd say yes, no, and getting better all the time.

But is it really that a magazine can't survive in the RPG industry or that the industry won't support a high-end magazine?

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiBut is it really that a magazine can't survive in the RPG industry or that the industry won't support a high-end magazine?

Excellent and valid question.  Dragon and Dungeon were doing quite well before they got pulled.  And the magazine industry, after a rough correction a few years ago, is going strong now.

Maybe those paranormals are a lot less fringe than we are.  Or they have some kind of unfair advantage, like being funded by aliens or using mind control to convince advertisers...

Quote from: SeanchaiTAPS doesn't. Some members of TAPS are on Ghost Hunters, but they're not actually synonymus. I'm sure it helps having exposure on the show, but the magazine itself has nearly nothing to do with the show, little to do with the group, and focuses most on the paranormal field.

Seanchai

As you say, it helps for the organization to have the exposure. It's more than RPG magazines have. It doesn't matter that the mag isn't about the show... it's about the same things that the show is about. They don't need to be synonymous.

Quote from: SeanchaiI'd say yes, no, and getting better all the time.

But is it really that a magazine can't survive in the RPG industry or that the industry won't support a high-end magazine?

Seanchai

Well, I am not fond of the "can't" support but it has its own challenges and I believe they are formidable. I mean, like I said, Kobold Quarterly seems to be making a good run of it.

As people have noted, a big challenge is that you need to push through the fragmented nature of the RPG industry. Yeah, you could do a DND mag, it has the largest base, but you have a series of issues with that. I honestly think a general mag would have even larger issues.

But impossible, no.

Bill

Quote from: SigmundAs you say, it helps for the organization to have the exposure. It's more than RPG magazines have.

So far, the references in the show to the magazine are: they talked about it for about two minutes when the magazine first came out and one of the TAPS members often wears a TAPS Paramagazine t-shirt.

If you were a new Ghost Hunters viewer, there's nothing obvious to tell you there's a magazine to subscribe to...

In terms of RPGs, at least D&D has seeped into the popular culture.

Seanchai

Quote from: HinterWeltAs people have noted, a big challenge is that you need to push through the fragmented nature of the RPG industry.

Er, okay. I can see that.

But instead of worrying about the base, why not reduce costs?

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiEr, okay. I can see that.

But instead of worrying about the base, why not reduce costs?

Seanchai

O.k. So we reduce costs, which I mention as the approach I would take if I was insane enough to try such an endeavor, and you will reduce quality. I know some would say you can reduce costs without reducing quality but there is an upper limit.

So, we have a B&W mag, with articles an editor, art & cartography. RPGs are a lot more cost intensive then some other media without having direct tie in. For instance, an art magazine has a lot of art in it but you can get folks who will donate art if you have the circulation. RPG mags, not so much.

What I am trying to say is costs are the enemy and some method would need to be developed to mitigate those. Either you need to have a hook (comics) that allow B&W and make it acceptable, or the customer base (DND) to support color interiors.

Dragon and Dungeon did well because they had a large circulation that had begun to fade by the time Paizo stopped. Still, how many mags have started up to just drop out? I know I saw my share in the 90s as a game store owner. That is really my only point.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltI know some would say you can reduce costs without reducing quality but there is an upper limit.

Yeah.

Quote from: HinterWeltWhat I am trying to say is costs are the enemy and some method would need to be developed to mitigate those. Either you need to have a hook (comics) that allow B&W and make it acceptable, or the customer base (DND) to support color interiors.

Don't we have a hook now, though, albeit a small one? I mean, we have people in what by all accounts is a rather small, insular hobby now. I definitely think there's a line to be walked, but...

You make a good point about magazines, but how many of them failed because of economics versus just running out of steam? It seems to me that the big difference between the fan and the publisher isn't how much money either party can throw into a product, their respective skill sets, etc., but the will to continue on beyond the point at which publishing a project is no longer fun. How many of this industries magazines have failed because they were started by someone thinking that publishing a magazine would be fun?

Seanchai

I would pay for a printed magazine that plays to strength of print media. I don't care what it costs. The strengths as I perceive them lie in the physicality of the medium: you can deliver mini games (a la early Dragon, S&T, etc.) and supporting resources for existing games (Exalted "charm" cards, DM screens, and so on). Something that did this and did this well would get my buck.

Quote from: SeanchaiYou make a good point about magazines, but how many of them failed because of economics versus just running out of steam? It seems to me that the big difference between the fan and the publisher isn't how much money either party can throw into a product, their respective skill sets, etc., but the will to continue on beyond the point at which publishing a project is no longer fun. How many of this industries magazines have failed because they were started by someone thinking that publishing a magazine would be fun?

Seanchai

No argument. That's probably a good reason why Paizo made such a good run of it. They could maintain in the long run. Part of that ability though, is linked to making the business profitable.

Another point, looking at it from a business side, is the lack of viable advertisers. Most commercial magazines use subscriptions to cover the shipping to the customer. Ads pay for the printing, writing and art. I do not know what they were before they shut down but Dragon was charging $2k for the back cover, 1200 for an interior. KoDT charged something like 1/2 to 1/4 of that.

So, although crazy guys like me would sometimes buy space, companies who do not produce d20 material usually do not want to dish out the cash for what is essentially, a house organ.

Bill

Quote from: SeanchaiSo far, the references in the show to the magazine are: they talked about it for about two minutes when the magazine first came out and one of the TAPS members often wears a TAPS Paramagazine t-shirt.

If you were a new Ghost Hunters viewer, there's nothing obvious to tell you there's a magazine to subscribe to...

In terms of RPGs, at least D&D has seeped into the popular culture.

Seanchai

Except, on the front page of the show's website, here, is an ad and link to the magazine.

Quote from: SigmundExcept, on the front page of the show's website, here, is an ad and link to the magazine.

Um, dude. That's not the show's website. That's the website for the TAPS group. Here's the show's website. As you can see, no mention of a magazine on the show's website.

Seanchai

Quote from: HinterWeltAnother point, looking at it from a business side, is the lack of viable advertisers.

Er. I assumed the ads would be there.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiUm, dude. That's not the show's website. That's the website for the TAPS group. Here's the show's website. As you can see, no mention of a magazine on the show's website.

Seanchai

Unless I am missing something, what does this have to do with the question of the viability of a general interest RPG magazine?  

I hate to break it to you, but I suspect that the demographic that this magazine targets (believers in the paranormal) is about 100 times the size of the demographic that an RPG mag would cater to.*  That type of superstitious thinking is in vogue now in popular culture, whereas RPGs are not.  Note that there is enough demand to justify multiple fucking TV shows devoted to this crap.  How many TV shows has the RPG hobby spawned lately?

Apples to oranges, man.


TGA

* That figure was obtained through a scientific survey conducted by the Pew organization of 5 randomly selected attendees at a recent monster truck rally in Hoboken, New Jersey.

Quote from: SeanchaiEr. I assumed the ads would be there.

Seanchai

Assumptions are fatal to business plans.  The only (admittedly anecdotal) evidence that I can present is the fact that I ran a successful gaming con for a number of years, and only in the first year did we have enough advertising revenue to help cover the costs of operations.  That was 1999.  After the flameout of the hobby in general in the years following, advertising dropped like a stone even though we had a track record as a successful event.

I suspect that an RPG magazine in today's market would face the same hard facts.  The hobby is now mostly small publishers and even the "big boys" have tight marketing budgets.  The exception, of course, is Wizards but they have their own (multiple) marketing avenues and would have little incentive to spend much on ads in a general interest magazine.

In short:

Printing on paper + postage = High costs
Lack of advertising potential = Low revenue

Doesn't sound like a great business model to me.  As I said, someone may be able to pull it off, but it would likely require charging at least $10 an issue or reducing production quality far below what was standard for the likes of Dragon, either of which would risk restricting its market appeal.


TGA