Quote from: WarthurThey probably had a flood of feedback coming in when they released the first draft - it's no wonder they're already finding things to tweak. I suspect many of these alterations are due to overwhelming popular demand.

Yeah, but that's kind of the problem.

The whole Pathfinder thing is predicated on the idea that Paizo knows what D&D want out of their games, will buy, etc.. They've spent months modifying 3.5 to a product they presumably feel will appeal to a wide number of folks.

They release an alpha version, then soon after, based on feedback, release corrections and updated.

If they really understand what the public wants, shouldn't the alpha be able to stand up to public scrutiny for a bit?

But, really, that's just a nagging thought on my end about the whole thing. I'm sure it'll be a solid product once its released, etc..

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiIf they really understand what the public wants, shouldn't the alpha be able to stand up to public scrutiny for a bit?

Spin it around a little. Paizo believe they have a vague idea of what the public want, but they aren't so hubristic as to assume that they're 100% correct. That's the whole point of having an open playtest process. Their willingness to respond to feedback is not only refreshing, it's absolutely vital if a wide-open playtest like this is going to work in the first place.

Really, if they didn't change the document, you'd take them to task for not responding to playtesting feedback.

Quote from: WarthurPaizo believe they have a vague idea of what the public want, but they aren't so hubristic as to assume that they're 100% correct.

We know that isn't the case. They're betting pretty heavily on knowing that the public wants their version of 3.5 instead of 4e.

Quote from: WarthurReally, if they didn't change the document, you'd take them to task for not responding to playtesting feedback.

Naw. Check up thread - I don't think it's wise of them to be having an open playtest.

But I was thinking: Maybe the timing of the latest update is PR-related, a quick demonstration that they will change based on public feedback.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiWe know that isn't the case. They're betting pretty heavily on knowing that the public wants their version of 3.5 instead of 4e.

You're overstating it.  They're betting pretty heavily on a profitable percentage of the public wanting a version more like 3.5.

10,000 downloads is pretty impressive in this short of time, to my thinking.  I  wonder how many before its all said and done?

So...thoughts on the tweaks thus far?

Haven't had a chance to look at 1.1 fully but do like that they made an alternate version available that's easier on the printer. No need to print out a full color version for just early playtests, especially if a new version is out each month or so.

Quote from: SeanchaiWe know that isn't the case. They're betting pretty heavily on knowing that the public wants their version of 3.5 instead of 4e.

Their public per definitionem wants 3.5 revised more than 4th edition. The only question is, how large is that public and how can Paizo make them stick. Nothing more is needed. They don't need the whole pie, nor can they realistically expect to have it.

Quote from: jrientsYou're overstating it. They're betting pretty heavily on a profitable percentage of the public wanting a version more like 3.5.

Sure, sure. But that "profitable percentage" has to be fairly large to support their operation. If Paizo were a tiny company that decided to produce their own 3.75, no one would care.

Seanchai

Quote from: jeff37923It's not stooping when it is the truth. Earlier comments directed towards me (QftI), your smarminess in this post, you're trolling. No mudslinging involved from my end, brother. Live with the label if you're going to act like the label.

You squeezed a coiler on the carpet, I fed it back to you, and you come up sputtering "troll". If I may be so bold I suggest a little easy listening for you.

Over, out, and back to the topic of the thread...

Quote from: Zachary The First10,000 downloads is pretty impressive in this short of time, to my thinking.

It might get a bit better reading than the typical free download but there are a number here that suggest, from their antidotal experience, the number of free downloads far outstrips people that actually read the document in question. Which again is larger than the people that would use it. I think?

It does show traffic and some online profile though, which I think says that Paizo timed this well.

I still don't quite get why Paizo is doing this? Why can't they just continue to publish supplements for 3.5? Is there really going to be that many people that are unwilling to move to 4e but are willing to drop cash for a new rule book, and learning that, and that's going to require some measure of jiggery with their existing books, when they could just stick with their 3.5 books? Or house rule their 3.5 a bit if they wanted I suppose, as opposed to getting everyone else's house rules in there too? :shrug:

It all feels like a solution in search of a need.

Quote from: blakkieI still don't quite get why Paizo is doing this? Why can't they just continue to publish supplements for 3.5?

Publishers don't really want to play in someone else's playground. They want to sell their vision or version of D&D.

What Paizo is doing is fine, but it doesn't benefit me as greatly as if they were going to continue to support the shelves of 3.5 books I already have.

You know, Lamb was saying that Paizo has to produce Pathfinder, that they have no choice. But I thinking: I was at my FLGS on Friday, picked up their guide to Korvosa, and noticed it was almost entirely systemless. I realized that their item decks, tiles, minis, etc., are also systemless. They couldn't produce systemless stuff for a couple of months?

Seanchai

Quote from: blakkieYou squeezed a coiler on the carpet, I fed it back to you, and you come up sputtering "troll". If I may be so bold I suggest a little easy listening for you.

Over, out, and back to the topic of the thread...

Nice try at making yourself look good with some revionist history and then saying you're dropping the subject, but its all there in the threads.

Quote from: obryn;187589For those who are glad - are you glad because you want Paizo (or anyone) to stick it to WotC or are you glad because you want to give their incarnation of 3.75 a chance?

Honest question.

Like I said from way back, what I'm looking for is a decent trimming of the 3.5 rules - like a Saga-fication for the Star Wars d20 rules set.  I was hoping to get that out of 4.0, but I'm skeptical I will.

This isn't it.  I mean, I like a lot of this - but I think the compatibility they're advertising with 3.x is dramatically overstated.

-O

Actually I'm glad for the reason that I can keep playing D&D (even if it will be with another company's rules such as Pathfinder (especially since Paizo has delivered a high standard on their previous published material)), thus allowing me to keep using all the 45 + Rulebooks and Supplements for 3.5 that are stacked on my shelves (and have cost me quite lot of money). I would have hated it if I had to switch to a new game system, which the 4th Edition really is.

During the last 29 years I have experienced enough changes in the System. Sure, the changes in the previous Editions make sense, but enough is enough. I am no longer willing to burn my money. If WOC had planned to take out any bugs, or to advance the game to a more playable form, they could have done so without declaring the whole System obsolete. They could have done an overhaul similar to what Paizo has done with Pathfinder. But no, they rather force me and other longtime players to play a whole new system.

Hellfire, I can understand that they are a company that is trying to make money. But forcing me to change the system and buy a whole new line of books, and not being able to keep using those that I have invested money in during the last 7 years, sucks. Its not that I have to buy more books; I would have bought anything new anyway. Its just the reason that I cant use my old ones with the new system. I feel like that they have no regards and feel no appreciation for the longtime fans and players of Ad&D/D&D.

Maybe I take this change in rules to personal, but unfortunately that is how I feel and, even after having played 4th Ed. for a few month (and not feeling comfortable with it), I am happy that somebody else is allowing me to play my favorite game for a while longer.

@ One Horse town: RE HONEST RULES MECHANICS


Interesting thought, honest rules/mechanics. So far i have not held one Rulebook of any kind of RPG in Hands that have not been found wanting in one way or the other. In the end it all depends on what one can get out of them or make with them. Thus one could say that there are NO perfect rules out on the market. So whats the point?