Quote from: SeanI like the way they're doing it - the alpha playtest forum's buzzing with constructive criticism.

Which is another problem. Nothing quite like a few hundred people all trying to out design the same RPG.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiWhich is another problem. Nothing quite like a few hundred people all trying to out design the same RPG.

I understand what you're saying but at least they're into 3.5 - it's not like getting Storygames to overhaul Forward to Adventure!

Quote from: Consonant DudeMost people will jump to 4e, including most so-called "haters".

Most people who primarily playing D&D versions previous to 3.x are unlikely to "jump" to 4e.  If they didn't "jump" for 3.x -- I don't see them doing it for 4e.

People playing D&D 3.x could move to 4e... but they might decide to stick with their game of preference.  I don't think it's a guarantee that you'll see most 3.x players switch to 4e completely.  It's all speculation at this point.

Anyone certainly could buy 4e and give it a try.  But they could also keep their older version D&D games running, and add to that with what Paizo is publishing.

I applaud Paizo for giving it the ol' college try.  I think it's the only reasonable move they can make.  Their bread and butter is supporting D&D, right?  And it looks like the powers that be are making that a chump deal for the new edition.

This is a big, big decision.

The lack of the GSL to date has probably prompted them to this. They must be surviving on a fraction of the income they commanded 6 months ago.

From scanning the pdf, i have to ask, why bother?

I think they'd be better off releasing setting splats, racial splats and miscalaneous splats to complement their Pathfinder adventures, rather than make a few cosmetic changes to 3.5 and calling it a new game.

Whatever way you cut it, i think that they'll be losing customers from the numbers they had during the days of plenty. They are just trying to mitigate that loss as best they can.

People are calling the decision ballsy. I'm not sure. Really ballsy would be using their good reputation garnered from the WotC partnership to make a new game. Cut the apron strings.

Quote from: StuartPeople playing D&D 3.x could move to 4e... but they might decide to stick with their game of preference. I don't think it's a guarantee that you'll see most 3.x players switch to 4e completely. It's all speculation at this point.

Add in that a fifth of the 3.x is still quite a bit bigger than the entire market for almost all other games.  A fifth is pure speculation but it's a ballpark estimate.  The exact number is unknown but you can bet that there will be a large number of 3.x players two years from now, maybe more than the number of AD&D players.  Paizo is probably thinking that they have more to gain if they can set themselves up as the primary publisher for this segment than as a secondary supplier for 4th ed. material.

Instead of looking at Paizo and comparing them to WotC -- how does this place them compared to other 2nd tier companies like White Wolf?

Do you think people are more likely to trade in their 3.x PHBs for new copies of Exalted -- or hold onto their 3.x and go with the Pathfinder RPG from Paizo?

See, I'm probably one of the 'haters' but IF they streamline it, I'd give it a shot.

Other than the game that yous tell me off for mentioning  I reckon this is the ONLY other interesting RPG design process happening - cuz there's only so much you can get from Billy No-Mates , the auteur-designer, sitting in his ivory tower doing his own meisterwerk - change the record, this could be fucking awesome if they do this with talent and integrity.

(edited - ranting)

Quote from: SeanI understand what you're saying but at least they're into 3.5 - it's not like getting Storygames to overhaul Forward to Adventure!

True. But I've literally seen this in action and have a decent amount of experience with more traditional playtests. I'd never, never choose to use for the for any game I created, nor would I recommend it.

Playtesting via forum is...well, it's a bunch of geeks all trying to out geek each other by coming up with the cleverest idea. Some of the ideas are good, but there are plenty more bad ones and the originators and adherents for the bad ones have to shout down challengers. Everyone is trying to please daddy by being his special helper.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiWhich is another problem. Nothing quite like a few hundred people all trying to out design the same RPG.

Sure. The trick is coming to a playable consensus. I don't deny it will be a challenge.

That said, the feeling that they are in touch with their existing audience is a feel I am not getting from wizards these days.

I reckon as long as the developers think though the ideas and don't just listen to the coolest/loudest posters, then they'll be alright.

- BUT, what could happen:

'i've invested so much thought in this process but you've killed it by ignoring me'

Quote from: StuartMost people who primarily playing D&D versions previous to 3.x are unlikely to "jump" to 4e.  If they didn't "jump" for 3.x -- I don't see them doing it for 4e.

I'd say that was 100% accurate.

However, there are 4,281 registered users on Dragonsfoot. WotC says there are 4,500,000 D&D players. So we're talking about .09%. Not 9%, but less than 1%. The number of people who are sticking with old versions of D&D compared to those have moved on is far, far, far from impressive.

Quote from: StuartPeople playing D&D 3.x could move to 4e... but they might decide to stick with their game of preference.

But is there game of preference really the 3.x rules set or is it the official D&D game? Given the game's past history, I'd say betting on nearly everyone moving to the new version is a damn safe bet.

Seanchai

Quote from: NicephorusAdd in that a fifth of the 3.x is still quite a bit bigger than the entire market for almost all other games.  A fifth is pure speculation but it's a ballpark estimate.

Dude, you're on crack.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiHowever, there are 4,281 registered users on Dragonsfoot. WotC says there are 4,500,000 D&D players. So we're talking about .09%. Not 9%, but less than 1%. The number of people who are sticking with old versions of D&D compared to those have moved on is far, far, far from impressive.

Comparing registered users to WotC's figures is comparing apples to unicorns.  How many people are registered at Gleemax?

Quote from: SeanchaiHowever, there are 4,281 registered users on Dragonsfoot. WotC says there are 4,500,000 D&D players. So we're talking about .09%. Not 9%, but less than 1%. The number of people who are sticking with old versions of D&D compared to those have moved on is far, far, far from impressive.

That's totally flawed reasoning.  You can't take membership of a single forum as a count for number of players.  For example, membership at Gleemax:Members: 343,016, Active Members: 41,380, less than a 10th (or 100th if you go by active) of the total estimate player base.  Second, there are aspects of Dragonsfoot that drive some people away even if they do play AD&D.
 
It's hard to say, but many feel that the transition rate will be significantly lower than last time.  AD&D was definitely feeling its age by the time 3.0 cam around.