Quote from: Kyle AaronI want to hear his thoughts on gaming. I am not really interested in his understanding of evolution, what a "conservative" is or is not, his views on the NATO intervention in Kosovo, et cetera et cetera ad nauseum.

Kyle, why don't you include posts about me and my replies in your list of things to avoid and follow your own advice.  I think that by ignoring your posts like this, I've been encouraging you in your addiction to opining about my replies and style of reply.

Quote from: Kyle AaronOn topic[/B]: of course D&D4e will still be D&D. It's like saying "New Coke" was not Coke. Of course it was fucking Coke, it was just a Coke that people didn't like so much, and regular Coke drinkers definitely hated it. But it was still Coke. The worst that could happen with D&D4e is that it'd be D&D's New Coke.

Whether 4E is D&D or New Coke is Coke depends on what you mean when you say "D&D" or "Coke".  Rather than worry about the label, people should be talking about what it is that they consider essential characteristics beyond the name.  For some people, D&D is a name on a box.  For other people, it's certain system elements.  For yet others, it's a style of play.

As for your analogy about replacing almost every cell of your body, if at the end of those seven years, the Kyle that we've all come to know wrote long essays about his love for America, enthusiastically voted for Howard, thought Dogs in the Vineyard was the best game ever, and encouraged me to post more about politics because my viewpoints on the subject fascinated him, would we still think you were the same person after all of those cells had been replaced?  Clearly, something defines the essence of Kyle and you can replace those elements that have nothing to do with that essence with impunity and you'll still be Kyle but if we change the things that define that essence, then maybe you wouldn't be, or you'd just be a shadow of what you were (such as a person who becomes brain damaged or gets Alzheimer's disease).

Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει

(All is flux, nothing stays the same.)

--Heraclitus

Quote from: Kyle AaronAbyssal Maw - Uncle Ronny popularised his phrase "fantasy heartbreaker". I want to popularise my phrase, the MARP game. Much Admired, Rarely-Played.

You're so jealous of Ron.  :haw:

Quote from: Elliot WilenTo paraphrase what I wrote above, I think the point is "defensive", against arguments that are based on claims that D&D is essentially the same as it always was.

My thoughts exactly.

The game has changed over time. The external influences on the mechanics and aesthetics have changed over time. The people playing it have changed. The way people play it has changed over time.

It seems that the point of this thread was for one person to express how he has seen D&D change, using OD&D as the initial state of the game, and then to explain why the game today is different enough from the essence of the game as he understands it that he considers it a different game.

Too bad James got discouraged. I don't know why some players are hostile at the very notion that the game has changed. I find this kind of statement astonishing:

QuoteSo when James Maliszewski says that D&D4e won't be truly D&D, I know for a certainty that he'll buy every fucking book they publish and play them with a passion.

Dude, the rest of my group wouldn't know 4E was in the works unless I told them about it. They didn't know about 3E either, until I showed up with a couple books I bought second-hand. We played 3E for two sessions and then went back to 2E. Then we switched to C&C for a short campaign. Now we play Basic. Some of us just don't have the time or inclination to learn new and complex systems, especially when that complexity gives us options in areas (tactical combat, character builds) we're happy enough to leave simple and abstracted.

Quote from: John MorrowThe two corrections were not identical.

You mis-stated yourself and you got pantsed.  You just couldn't stand it from me. That's too bad, John.  Take your licks and stop being a twat about it.

As for the analogy, it has a certain appropriateness about it in that game design doesn't necessarily keep getting better and better.  Often times people go off on tangents to make games that simply reflect elements of play that they enjoy, but don't necessarily do them better than previous games.  Sometimes people even engage in regressive evolution by making "retro" games to recapture old styles of gaming.  The "natural selection" that's at work in situations like these is how well the games are received by the people who play games.  Games that are popular will go on to be played widely and affect subsequent games, whether they're better that other games or not.

Beyond this, the analogy wears thin.  Kyle has a point with his MARP games, games that do seem to be qualitatively "better" than other games on the market, and are frequently recognised as such, but that don't gain significant popularity or wide-spread play.  Now, roping that inconvenient analogy back into things, they may have a seminal influence on the design of later games -- an adaptive trait is passed on, even if the game it came from eventually failed.

So...what does all this have to do with D&D?

!i!

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Quote from: Elliot WilenΠάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει

(All is flux, nothing stays the same.)

--Heraclitus

"And unmoved within the limits of great bonds/ it is unbeginning unending, since generation and destruction/ have wandered quite far away, and genuine conviction has expelled them./ And remaining the same, in the same place, and on its own, it rests,/ and thus steadfast right there it remains; for powerful Necessity/ holds it in the bonds of a limit, which encloses it all around,/ wherefore it is right that What Is be not unfulfilled; for it is not lacking: if it were, it would lack everything."

--Parmenides

:cool: :haw:

Quote from: John MorrowWhether 4E is D&D or New Coke is Coke depends on what you mean when you say "D&D" or "Coke"

I believe in naming things as I believe about rpg theory and grammar - description rather than prescription. I talk about what is, and try to be clear when I'm talking about what should be, clear that I'm not talking about "true roleplaying" or whatever.

What I mean is what producers of D&D or Coke or whatever themselves call "trademark" or "dress" - basically, if on looking at the thing most people will identify it as that thing, then that's what it is, or is trying to be.

"Most people" is a good enough standard. We can safely ignore the congenitally pedantic and drooling fanboys. "This film isn't the true Batman!" or "This is not a true Pinot Noir!" or "D&D4e is not true D&D!"

Quote from: StuartYou're so jealous of Ron.  :haw:

Yes, I missed out on the course which could have taken me to doctoral research on bat penises.

Quote from: HaffrungDude, the rest of my group wouldn't know 4E was in the works unless I told them about it.

My experience is that the players who are indifferent to editions are almost, though not quite, as indifferent to systems. The player who doesn't own a copy of D&D3.5's player's handbook and doesn't even know there's a 4th coming out is very unlikely to care much if the group changes to GURPS, so long as they don't have to do all the character conversion.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAs for the analogy, it has a certain appropriateness about it in that game design doesn't necessarily keep getting better and better.

Evolution is sometimes conceived of as finding the way to some One True Perfect Animal, adapted to survive in any conditions, which wipes out all other animals. Far more common however is the adaptation to fill some little niche, some space and place and set of nutrients that nothing else has any use for. I mean, you get little spiders and things living in the vents of volcanic springs in what's effectively sulphuric acid in the dark at past boiling point five miles down under water, for fuck's sakes.

In that sense, roleplaying games could be said to be "evolving" in that nowadays there's an rpg for just about any style of play, however obscure or unusual.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityDear god, everyone's a primadonna these days!

Except for me.

:rimshot:

Let's hear it already.

Seriously. Mofo picked the WRONG boards to post this shit on if he can't take people being dicks, pricks or raging assholes. Hell, thats the appeal of these forums - talk about gaming and cussing like a pirate without cuss filters or moderators all over your inbetweennus.

MARP works for me. Let's get this meme rolling. It's pretty close to MERP, but that's a case for 'exhibit A', eh?

-=Grim=-

Quote from: Pierce Inverarity[...]
--Parmenides

:cool: :haw:

QuoteIt depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If [...]'is' means is and never has been, that is [...] one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement....

--Bill Clinton:hehe: :haw:

Quote from: Elliot Wilen

QuoteIt depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is...

--Bill Clinton:hehe: :haw:

God damn it.  That and George H.W. Bush's quote about a "necessary economic downturn" have been haunting me non-stop for the last week or two.

!i!

Quote from: Elliot WilenIt depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If [...]'is' means is and never has been, that is [...] one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement....

Is you is or is you ain't my baby?

--Louis Jordan

:pimpdahoe:

Quote from: Pierce InverarityIs you is or is you ain't my baby?

--Louis Jordan

:pimpdahoe:

Causing a moment of total befuddlement, I read that as "Louis Jourdan". :eek:


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Quote from: Kyle AaronDon't encourage Morrow to post on non-gaming topics. If we only reply to his gaming posts he'll make more of them.

I want to hear his thoughts on gaming. I am not really interested in his understanding of evolution, what a "conservative" is or is not, his views on the NATO intervention in Kosovo, et cetera et cetera ad nauseum.

But what he reckons about roleplaying games, I'm very interested in.

He also doesn't so often do that line-by-line refutation thing when talking about roleplaying stuff, which really pisses everyone off.

Morrow has an addiction to politics. It's time for us to stage an intervention and stop being his tambourine men.

If you don't want to encourage off-topic discussion in a thread, then why are you drawing attention to it? Drop the primadonna drama and get on with the discussion.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaCausing a moment of total befuddlement, I read that as "Louis Jourdan". :eek:


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It should be by Vernon Jordan, really.

Only on the RPGsite can I post a picture of Rick James dressed as Conan and get completely ignored in favor of a quote by Heraclitus written in the original greek!