Quote from: David RIs Necromunda the 40K setting that was detailed in White Dwarf some years back?

FYI, you were right and after doing some digging it seems that the game that became Necromunda started life as an more RPG-like game called Confrontation that was indeed serialized in the pages of early White Dwarf.

I even found a website that has a lot of the old Confrontation material here.  

Adventures in the early days of Games Workshop...

Btw, I even found a small clue to the general GW disinterest in the RPG market in one of the pages of this web site:

QuoteGraeme [Davis] explains: "Necromunda was never intended to be a RPG, and indeed is not, placing the emphasis on the skirmishes alone. After Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play didn't double miniatures sales overnight the way W40K did, and when games like Golden Heroes, Judge Dredd and the licensed printings of Paranoia and RQ3 didn't sell too well, GW lost interest in RPGs almost completely."

TGA

GW games exist first and foremost to give you something to do with Citadel Miniatures.  Not much else to that, you can read about it on the GW Group mission statement site.

They have always been up front about that.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianBtw, I even found a small clue to the general GW disinterest in the RPG market in one of the pages of this web site:

I fondly remember the days when WD was a gaming mag with "scenarios", articles, maps, GM/Player advice and of course the bitter Dave Langford spitting out much needed venom at SF & Fantasy writers and sometimes even their books.

Role playing gamers always knew that GW corporate were not too keen on them or their hobby. A pity because the articles written for their armies lists - both 40K and fantasy - were damn inspiring setting fluff.

*shrug* What could have been.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: BlackhandIf you don't like what I'm saying, they you either a) don't understand the premise - but think that you do or b) are very jealous of the game.

I understand the premise very well, thank you very much. There's a difference between understanding and agreement, and more possibilities than the two you were able to conceive of.

Quote from: BlackhandOh and for the record, Fischig was not a beginning character, but rather the captain of the baddest ass Arbites (pronounced AR BUH TAYZ) on the planet, for those of you who have claimed to read that story.

Course he's a beginning character. He's a new joiner to an Inquisitorial retinue. He wasn't "the captain", just a veteran chastener thought able to keep Eisenhorn in check. He certainly wouldn't have been allowed to tag along if he was chief of Arbites as you're implying.

Starter characters are Acolytes...not Inquisitors Retinue.

Acolytes are a step down, in that regard...

BTW Welcome to the RPGsite Blackhand!!!

Well, I just ordered Dark Heresy through Amazon.  The commentary here and at other places convinced me that it was worth a look.  Perhaps teamed with the background material culled from Necromunda it will be a decent option for gaming in the 40K universe.

It apparently won't do well for a Space Marine game of ULTRAVIOLENCE and destroying Titans with your bare hands (or Power Gloves, I suppose), but I think that I can live with that...


TGA

Quote from: The Good AssyrianIt apparently won't do well for a Space Marine game of ULTRAVIOLENCE and destroying Titans with your bare hands (or Power Gloves, I suppose), but I think that I can live with that...

But if you can't...if you need to indulge in some grand guignol or splatterfest that plays like money shots to the eye....then you need RIFTS.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: KieroI understand the premise very well, thank you very much. There's a difference between understanding and agreement, and more possibilities than the two you were able to conceive of.



Course he's a beginning character. He's a new joiner to an Inquisitorial retinue. He wasn't "the captain", just a veteran chastener thought able to keep Eisenhorn in check. He certainly wouldn't have been allowed to tag along if he was chief of Arbites as you're implying.

It's been a a couple of years since I read that story...there are a lot of others based in the same universe, you know.  Fischig is definitely not a beginning character.

As far as understanding the premise goes, maybe you do, maybe you don't.  Seems if you were a proper GW nutjob and not just an RPG'r you'd not be so vindictive.  

By GW Nutjob I mean hobbyist, and by hobbyist I mean you construct and paint toy soldiers.

If you have been into GW games for a good long while (I'm going on about 16 years now) and not just rpg's in general (I've been playing RPG's for 20 years - not as much as some, but a lot more than most) you'd be a lot more appreciative of Dark Heresy for exactly what it is.

If it doesn't appeal to you that's fine - a lot of aspects of Warhammer in general do not appeal to all gamers.  In fact, in my experience RPGr's simply don't like Warhammer at all, even if they like D&D Minis.

I don't know why because GW > WotC.

I'd also like to clear up that to the hardcore GW hobbyist, any glaring mistakes in the system or omissions in the text or any other nitpicking simply won't matter.  Dark Heresy goes on the wall, and will definitely outlive Inquisitor in it's usefulness. In fact I think it might even be the upgrade from Inquisitor.

Interested RPGr's shouldn't limit themselves to material published by Black Industries, there are tons of gaming info and the statistics are extremely easy to convert from one GW game to another.

@ Jak - Thanks for the welcome...I've been reading Pundit's rants for almost a year now and finally decided to post on something near to my heart.

For those of you that want ultraviolence with marines...WD #300 had rules and a list for what it labeled "Movie Marines" - e.g. 10 marines take out 100 enemies with super-heroic statistics and much grabbing of alien ass.  Check that out.

Quote from: BlackhandI'd pay more attention to this thread if more of you were actually 40k fans.

Let's see here, played and owned Rogue Trader the year it came out?  Check!

Current edition and army books? Check!

Obsessive Specialist Games fan?  Check!

Hate the Black Library fiction? Check!

More GW minis than my annual income could purchase in a year?  Check!

I've got two 40k armies, arguably 3 since I have old Cadians and plastic Catachans and Orks, lots and lots of Orks.

I've got five fantasy armies: High Elves, Green Skins, Beastmen, Empire, and Brettonia.

Also, 2 Warmaster Armies, and a large collection of assembled and painted =][=nquisitor figures.

And no, I don't think they took the best aproach to Dark Heresy.  And no, I don't think it's half the game =][=nquisitor is.  And no, I don't think ultra violence is the point.  Nor do I think it's about starting out pathetic.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Dan Abnett
As far as I know, all Black Industries stuff has been canned. That’s the way it goes. If it didn’t sell, it wasn’t worth doing. You can’t argue with that. GW is making cuts across the board, and I am especially pained to see the loss of my good friend and BL publisher Marc Gascoigne. I will miss him, enormously.

Marc Gascoigne?

Man. I remember that name fondly from the ancient pre-house rag White Dwarf days. He must have a GW story or ten to tell.

There's a thread on rpg.net, at this url http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=377858

The idea was that, based on the premise the book had sold out and as such folk would be struggling to find it, people should post locations where they've spotted copies so those still looking can find it.

What's noticeable, is that there is no shortage of copies.  In fact, what's noticeable is it's not sold out to gamers at all, it's sold out to shops.  Shops have bought it, but many copies are staying right on their shelves.

Wrong focus, dead line, some other factor, I don't know why.  But that thread does not suggest that the game is as successful as many of us (me included) were assuming.

Quote from: BlackhandIt's been a a couple of years since I read that story...there are a lot of others based in the same universe, you know.  Fischig is definitely not a beginning character.

I know there's lots of others, I've read 50+ 40k novels in my time (though most of them were either shite or only worthy of reading once).

Fischig is a starting character. Same as Harlon Nayl when he joined Eisenhorn outside of the story (yet already a 15-year veteran of the bounty chasing business) is a starting character. Same as Midas Betacore is a starting character.

There are no acolyte-equivalent nobodies in the books. You've got Bequin, but within months she's badass courtesy of being trained while in transit in the warp. Everyone else is ultra-capable and stays that way.

Making characters on a par with those we actually see in the Abnett novels not only requires a lot of XP, but it's a real ball-ache to do as well.

Quote from: BlackhandAs far as understanding the premise goes, maybe you do, maybe you don't.  Seems if you were a proper GW nutjob and not just an RPG'r you'd not be so vindictive.  

By GW Nutjob I mean hobbyist, and by hobbyist I mean you construct and paint toy soldiers.

I stopped doing that shit over 10 years ago. Waste of time and money, and frankly I have zero interest in wargaming. If it weren't for the Black Library novels, I wouldn't have any contact with anything from GW at all nowadays. Abnett novels are the only thing they produce that appeals to me in the slightest.

Kiero mentioned what is my big beef here. I have dozens, if not hundreds of games (I have a lot) that let me start at the bottom of the proverbial dungheap and claw my way up the ladder in the 'Hero's Journey' nonsense.

Not only does Dark Heresy not NEED to repeat that same (tired) fucking trope, but it directly contravenes the 'source material'.  No Inquisitor would bother hiring on some fresh recruit trooper from the Imperial Guard and testing and training him up to Stormtrooper quality (the end of one branch of Guardsman career), he'd just requisition some Stormtroopers and see which ones survived the brutal missions he used them for. THOSE guys (the surivivors) are the 'raw recruits' of an Inquisitor.  

In NO 40K book I've ever read has there been a 'hero's journey'. Characters are always badass, were always badass. Space Marine 'potential recruits' are 12 year olds with the skulls of a dozen enemies they've slain on the mantelplace.

The one tired and trite defence of this 'heroes journey' style gaming is that its hard to 'cut back' a game from the starting point to capture 'starting play'.

Well guess what, binky? I tried to make an expirenced Acolyte using the rules as written and it was  a real fucking bitch.  I can see in play, in drips and drabs its probably not that hard, but all at once? To capture that 'Fischig' or 'Betancore' character? Not gonna happen.

I am strongly tempted to go into the relative impossibility of capturing traditional backgrounds like the 'Schola Progenium' or Cognitae, and all that, but I think I'll save it until I have time to do a proper review.

The only 40K fiction I've read is some stuff by Ian Watson. But reading about the current 40K fiction...all I can say is, that I'm glad Dark Heresy is not faithful to this source material. I mean if I wanted to run 40K the minis game - Space Hulk...what's the name of that Titan game etc I'd use RIFTS...but DH sounds just about right to me.

Regards,
David R

QuoteBut reading about the current 40K fiction...all I can say is, that I'm glad Dark Heresy is not faithful to this source material.

Yes. Heaven forbid that they actually make material that would appeal to consumers of their other successful products, riding on the popularity of some of the best loved characters in gaming. With thinking like that they might have stayed in business!

I gots this urge to get the Star Wars licence and start making games about salami. That sings barbershop.