For what it worth Lord of the Rings Online has a pretty nice setting for a game. It does a nice job allowing players to adventure during the War of the Ring without interfering with the quest itself. It does this partly by taking advantage of the fact that Frodo journey and stay from the Shire to Rivendell takes a number of months.

Quote from: gleichmanTo each his own, but here you disagree with Tolkien himself who set out to write a novel of the Fourth Age.

He gave up, deciding that it was upon reflection that it was very uninteresting and not worth examining. Thus, by making it interestingin any way- you change canon which is the first reason you give for doing a Fourth Age campaign

On the other hand, Tolkein gave up on the Fourth Age because he found that it wasn't good fodder for another novel.  However, as we've been discussing previously, novels and RPGs are very different beasts.  I suspect that Tolkein may have had a problem with the fact that there was no great, over-arching threat that could be invoked that wouldn't render the prior novels trite and inconsequential (c.f. Donaldson's Thomas Covenant various sequel series, or Brooks' many Shannara series).  There were, however, many little brush-wars that followed the War of the Rings, regional conflicts in which a group of RPG player characters could figure prominently.  It's all a matter of scale and preference, but this is great stuff for an RPG, while not-such-great stuff for reading material.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaIt's all a matter of scale and preference, but this is great stuff for an RPG, while not-such-great stuff for reading material.

I've heard that point of view expressed before in a slightly different area (but one I well recall). Many players of Star Wars Galaxies expressed that they specifically wanted to play unimportant day to day people without any connection to the themes or events of the movies.

I've never understood such a stance. If one isn't willing to engage in the core concepts of a setting why use it at all? I almost get the idea of playing in a sandbox with nice scenery... but not quite.

However my understanding isn't required on this point, so I have to admit that such an taste exists and leave it at that. I do think people descibing such a campaign as "Star Wars" or "Middle Earth" is misleading at best.

Quote from: estarFor what it worth Lord of the Rings Online has a pretty nice setting for a game. It does a nice job allowing players to adventure during the War of the Ring without interfering with the quest itself. It does this partly by taking advantage of the fact that Frodo journey and stay from the Shire to Rivendell takes a number of months.

I play that game and enjoy it.

It is however a very poor version of Middle Earth in ways basically unavoidable to the current state of the art MMORPG design but easily dealt with on the table top.

QuoteI've heard that point of view expressed before in a slightly different area (but one I well recall). Many players of Star Wars Galaxies expressed that they specifically wanted to play unimportant day to day people without any connection to the themes or events of the movies.

I've never understood such a stance. If one isn't willing to engage in the core concepts of a setting why use it at all? I almost get the idea of playing in a sandbox with nice scenery... but not quite.

q.e.d.

No further questions your honours.

I thought I might have misread you (you implied that), but I didn´t.

Settembrini, he's simply saying it's a bit odd to play regular schmoes in SW (you have Traveller for that), or potato farmers in D&D (you have Harnmaster for that) That's not the same as embracing movie gaming necessarily.

Quote from: gleichmanIf one isn't willing to engage in the core concepts of a setting why use it at all? I almost get the idea of playing in a sandbox with nice scenery... but not quite.

[...snip...]

I do think people descibing such a campaign as "Star Wars" or "Middle Earth" is misleading at best.

Perhaps tellingly, I've heard this sort of response from people just don't understand the appeal of roleplaying games, especially those based on popular novels or movies.  To these people, diverging from the plot described in the books or films detracts from what the author or director created -- it's a derivative, and fundamentally corrupted, product.  Just read the book or watch the movie and leave it at that.  This is, of course, a matter of their taste.

That said, the "core concepts" of Middle Earth covers a spectrum broader than the War of the Rings.  The fact that Tolkein addressed the Fourth Age at all in his extensive appendices to Lord of the Rings suggests that.  Roleplaying in that setting is just as valid as playing against the backdrop of the events described in greater detail in the preceding books.

!i!

Quote from: Settembriniq.e.d.

No further questions your honours.

I thought I might have misread you (you implied that), but I didn´t.

I have no idea what you're getting at other than snark.

It's one thing to claim that one's taste in fiction drives one's taste in rpgs (something I haven't done that you said I did), and another to wonder why one would pick a existing fictional setting up front and then specifically not engage any of it in play will still saying they are playing "X the RPG".

I'm begining to think you can only react in terms of extremes.

@pierce:
Correct, not necessarily.

But it reeks strongly like "XY is RILLY about...", you know the drill.

And from gleichman´s tone, I could at least gets hints of the implication that he "rilly knows what LotR is about."

Re Star Wars: A point could be made that the main appeal of the franchise is the illusion of a huge galaxy in which adventurous stuff happens.

"Mos Eysley cantina scene" >> "I´m your father!"

etc. pp. connect the dots, it´s all in this thread yada yadayada, I´m done.
Have fun.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaPerhaps tellingly, I've heard this sort of response from people just don't understand the appeal of roleplaying games, especially those based on popular novels or movies.

That's about as strange of a response directed to me as it would be from me to you I think. Perhaps you've read too much into my statement.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThat said, the "core concepts" of Middle Earth covers a spectrum broader than the War of the Rings.

I would never consider the "War of the Ring" to be anything other than detail that frames what I was calling 'core concepts', given of course that the work has a number of those that in turn can be selected by taste- but which still to most readers can be seen and applied.

For one, it is perhaps the defining novel of the High Fantasy genre. For someone to pick that setting and specifically ignore all the characteristics of High Fantasy is... an odd choice and one perhaps more driven by deconstructist drives than anything connected to the setting itself. Or perhaps the desire to run a different genre combined with a failure to understand the differences- ignorance or willful misuse.

Not that I saying that any of that should be off limits (I do it myself with some settings in fact), but I consider it somewhat dishonest to say you're playing in Middle Earth when in point of fact you're in a completely different place that just happens to share some landscape and names.

Thus I take pains to say that I run a weird west campaign that uses modified Deadlands rules if the subject should come up. I would be basically lying to claim that I was playing Deadlands: The Weird West and leave it at that.

Quote from: Settembrini"Mos Eysley cantina scene" >> "I´m your father!"

That's a remarkably succinct argument in support of boots-on-the-ground gaming versus epic narrative gaming. I like it.

Sett does react in extremes but I think this time he's right. After all he would know a "purist" argument when he sees it.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RSett does react in extremes but I think this time he's right. After all he would know a "purist" argument when he sees it.

I find that amusing since my position from the beginning on this is that there are more ways than the obvious (War of the Ring, Low Magic, etc) of playing a Middle Earth game.

"Hey people- the sky can be different colors than blue, like reds and oranges at times..."

Sett/David R: "one way purist bastard"

I am sort of a second age kind of guy myself. Some find it boring but I think there are some good adventures in there. Early third age can be good too.

As to who could do it justice, hmmm, I sure liked ICE's material. Well done and presented (and I have most of it). As to modern, as Mike pointed out, licensing would be difficult. I think it would have to be a relatively small dedicated company. I think Green Ronin or XRP could do it justice. Joe really has some incredible research skills. I would put a mention in for Brett at PIG as a "I would love to see what he does with it" kind of thing.

For me though, over the years I have more or less had to go with my own systems. I had a kind of sweet system for Numenorean sorcerers and their Black Numenorean enemies involving a lot of artifact/weather/mental combinations. Fun times.

Bill

Quote from: gleichmanI find that amusing since my position from the beginning on this is that there are more ways than the obvious (War of the Ring, Low Magic, etc) of playing a Middle Earth game.

"Hey people- the sky can be different colors than blue, like reds and oranges at times..."

Sett/David R: "one way purist bastard"

Quotegleichman:
For someone to pick that setting and specifically ignore all the characteristics of High Fantasy is... an odd choice and one perhaps more driven by deconstructist drives than anything connected to the setting itself. Or perhaps the desire to run a different genre combined with a failure to understand the differences- ignorance or willful misuse.

Not that I saying that any of that should be off limits (I do it myself with some settings in fact), but I consider it somewhat dishonest to say you're playing in Middle Earth when in point of fact you're in a completely different place that just happens to share some landscape and names.

Engaging in a little Settire....how interesting.

Regards,
David R