...which is a triviality. Obviously a person is defined by her preferences.

I think there's a distinct difference between a game emulating serial fiction such as a television or comic book series -- which often have a distinct episodic formula, and emulating a single work or short series (i.e. a novel, movie, or trilogy).  

That is, I think it is a bit clearer what we should expect from a Star Trek or Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG.  It's a lot harder to say what a Lord of the Rings RPG should be like.  

One thing that strikes me about the narrative of LotR compared to most RPGs is that a lot of it is spent in traveling -- as opposed to just jumping to action.

Quote from: Settembrini...which is a triviality. Obviously a person is defined by her preferences.

I'll come back to you when you have something interesting (and hopefully not inconsistent with your own posts) to say.



In the meantime, I think it's worth exploring why questions of "what game-system would work best for Setting X" come up at all, let alone as often as they do. Why is this?

Based upon my own experience, I would expect most people to just use their favored system perhaps with house rules and run with it. I would expect a much smaller number to design their own system to match their taste. I would expect another small number to wait upon their favored designer in the hopes that he would make it.

Instead the common model seems to be "wish for someone else to publish it and then complain about how it fails" followed by the 'fav designer' approach.


Some of this I understand. Maps and collected history are hard work and unless one is gifted with impressive recall they are needed for a rpg campaign. The thing here is that many settings (Middle Earth especially) already have these collected in published works. All that is missing is game stats, are they that critical?

Even so, perhaps avoiding the work is the key component. Most campaigns don't last long according to WotC's research, and that implies a low upfront committment. And that implies a desire for already 'cooked' game systems.

And I think some of the questions of this type are a poorly concealed attempt to pitch one's own favored systems...

Other opinions?

Aren't gamers divided into those who homebrew LoTR and those who use a variety of published systems....but they all use ICE supplements for background info ?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: jhkimThat is, I think it is a bit clearer what we should expect from a Star Trek or Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG.  It's a lot harder to say what a Lord of the Rings RPG should be like.

Even here I think there is a wide range of disagreement about what parts are worthly of game simulation.

First season Buffy or last? They are very different things in my mind.

Another example comes from Pundits rants about superhero games. He IMO gets them completely off track by focusing on the wrong elements of a serial medium and storyline- indeed he focuses on what I consider the worse elements and ignores all the good.

Thus I think HERO System is perfect for the setting and he hates it.

Quote from: jhkimOne thing that strikes me about the narrative of LotR compared to most RPGs is that a lot of it is spent in traveling -- as opposed to just jumping to action.

Thus from your PoV, how would you invoke that in a game design? Extensive rules for traveling (mechanics based) or by Player interaction with the world they encounter along the way (role-play based without rules)? That is (to use my old terms), what Design Layer is that element invoked at?

It's a interesting question subject to different answers.

Thus IMO Pundit gets the starting question all wrong. He's jumping to end and then wanting people to explain why when they likely never considered the reasons before making their choice.

When I did the rule design for my Middle Earth campaign, I listed out bulleted items of what I considered the important and meaningful elements of Middle Earth. And used those to not only select/design rules- but to pick a place in time in a setting far larger than most people think.

And I listed with them if they were to be mechanically driven or not.

Thus (to use your one bullet item and my answer to mechanics):

1. Long trips through the world. No Mechanics, RP with place names & encounters

Quote from: gleichmanI'll come back to you when you have something interesting (and hopefully not inconsistent with your own posts) to say.

Well, you were making a specific argument:

QuoteWhat one sees and likes in rpg design for a significant number of people tends to project its shadow on to what one likes in fiction.

When you take out the fiction in that statement, it becomes trivial. [insert your own thinking, then proceed to...]: Of course, preferences exist.

But to base the understanding of RPG design preferences on the assumption they would be a function of the fiction preferences of said person is dead wrong. Actually it´s the single biggest fuckup in RPG history, because it caused so much grief and bad games.

There is nothing inconsistent in my post, just sloppy thinking on your part.

Quote from: SettembriniBut to base the understanding of RPG design preferences on the assumption they would be a function of the fiction preferences of said person is dead wrong.

That's what you got out of my post?

Sorry, made it without thinking about what sacred cow you'd wrongly (almost by 180 degrees) leap to the defense of. Try again and if you still think that's the meaning I was shooting at, please don't bother reading more of my posts. It will be impossible for us to communicate successfully. We've been down this road before if I'm recalling correctly.

For what it's worth, I think the fault is more mine than yours viewed as a strict matter of english usage.

Welcome back, Brian!

Really, I was fond of MERP, if not the sometimes puzzling power levels for the Middle Earth I knew, but if anyone could give it another run, I'd give it to I.C.E.  Perhaps something close to HARP.  If not I.C.E., honestly, the way the Epic RPG is set up and plays, I just think it'd be a very good fit for it.

I began buying MERP supplements way back when, soon after ICE started making them. We tried the game itself, and found it to not be very much in keeping with the "feel" of the setting. The magic system, the combat system, none of it felt right. Decipher's game, which I actually ran for a campaign, fits the feel of the setting much, much better. Plus, the research into the setting is much better and more in-depth than that of MERP. Sure, I use MERP sourcebooks, but they can be pretty wonky, with weirdness that I could never imagine Tolkien including - such as a flying castle built by elves, one of whom creates human/animal hybrids by way of surgery and magic. Huh?

I think running a campaign in the 4th age is probably best. There is as much to do in Middle-earth after the fall of Sauron as in most D&D settings.

Of course, on the other end of things you could always run Exalted for the first age and early second.  But it might not handle the power level all that well...

Another way I wouldn't mind seeing Middle Earth done is GURPS but not with the core GURPS magic system of course.  Boy, and people complained that Rolemaster didn't do Middle Earth magic right.

Lastly and perhaps most properly one could adapt Pendragon for it.

Quote from: David JohansenLastly and perhaps most properly one could adapt Pendragon for it.

Okay, now there's an intriguing idea.  It'd be a heap-load o' work, but it could suit the power scale nicely, and place an interesting emphasis on the fin de l'ère ideals and sensibilities of the races of Middle Earth.

!i!

We all played many different RPGs.

What would make up the elements an ideal LOTR RPG?

We know that it is low or studle magic, and has disparate levels of powers. Much of the supernatural effects seems to effect morale and will as opposed to blasting them out of their shoes. Magic also seems to work like MMORPG buff spells where attributes and skills are enhanced or degraded as opposed to direct attacks. The few exceptions are the Bruinen Fords and the Gandalf driving off the Nazgul outside of Minas Tirith. From the Simarillion there are example of shapeshifting

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOkay, now there's an intriguing idea.

Totally. Especially the alignment system.

How about Jeffrey Schecter's Legends of Middle-earth?

Quote from: James McMurray...
I like ICE's version, including the mechanics. Or at least the Rolemaster mechanics, I never played much MERP.
....

I loved MERP!  (See sig.)  

And I agree that, for the most part, the mechanics were well suited to Middle-earth, at least in the Third Age.  MERP kept combat deadly and grim.  That's how I understand Middle-earth, from the LotR books (as opposed to the movies).  It's a place where an orc can fell a great warrior with a lucky strike (e.g. Isildur).  It's a place where a single critical hit can make a difference in battle (e.g. Bard's slaying of Smaug; Isildur's hit on Sauran; etc.).

And the 'cultural/racial backgrounds' provided in the core MERP book were great (well researched, etc.).

The magic system was not appropriate (mages flinging fire balls was not really 'Tolkienesque'), but otherwise I think that MERP did a great job.

However, ICE has made it very clear that they have zero interest in ever touching anything involving Tolkien again.  (And they couldn't afford it anyway.)

The only companies that could afford the licensing fees, I suspect, are WotC, WW, and GW (possibly Mongoose).