Quote from: James J SkachGood question. What WotC has to get to is a place where they can be digital, but still keep the strengths of P&P. I'm still convinced it can be done, I just don't think the MMORPG direction is it...

This happened to crystallize something for me.  My favorite D&D computer game is the original Baldur's Gate.  What I liked about it was just the ability (within limits) to go north, south, east or west and get ambushed by gibberlings and find caves and explore them.  And it used a pretty true translation of a rules set that had been written without computers in mind.  Memory and computing power have improved since then, but its a package that I haven't quite seen duplicated, even in games that I otherwise liked.

So my point...  I wouldn't be surprised if WotC is positioning themselves for digital with 4ed, but I agree that the MMORPG direction is unnecessary.  I think even multiplayer could be done with a totally pen and paper ruleset.  And I imagine they want a new edition for sales, but if they are making design decisions for digital, its likely to be both unnecessary and counterproductive.

Quote from: SaladmanThis happened to crystallize something for me.  My favorite D&D computer game is the original Baldur's Gate.  What I liked about it was just the ability (within limits) to go north, south, east or west and get ambushed by gibberlings and find caves and explore them.  And it used a pretty true translation of a rules set that had been written without computers in mind.  Memory and computing power have improved since then, but its a package that I haven't quite seen duplicated, even in games that I otherwise liked.

So my point...  I wouldn't be surprised if WotC is positioning themselves for digital with 4ed, but I agree that the MMORPG direction is unnecessary.  I think even multiplayer could be done with a totally pen and paper ruleset.  And I imagine they want a new edition for sales, but if they are making design decisions for digital, its likely to be both unnecessary and counterproductive.

This is what has been kicking around for some time, even before the issue of a 4th edition came about. Perhaps it's one of the things that gets into my sore spot- because with 4th edition, it seems to me that someone got it into their heads that WoW really is their competition - and I think that's a mistake.

I am of the (completely subjective!) opinion that with today's computing power, a really good translation of the Pen & Paper rule set, and to a significant extent experience, could be produced that would set up D&D for a much more positive future.

I get the feeling that 4e is a holding pattern until a digital/paper 5e can be created. The question is will it be a MMORPG, or a really cool translation of the table-top experience - complete with a rethinking of the tools available.

we shall see...we shall see....

Quote from: James J SkachI get the feeling that 4e is a holding pattern until a digital/paper 5e can be created. The question is will it be a MMORPG, or a really cool translation of the table-top experience - complete with a rethinking of the tools available.

I am willing to bet it will NOT be a MMORPG. I think that would be part of the generation after the next of gaming when the tools to create and buy context have matured better. The next one is going to be firmly in the replication of the tablet-op experience. The combat system and character management tools of MMORPGS may be borrowed.

The reason for this is that making content for MMORPG games is just too damn time-consuming and limited. You have limitations on the type of objects you can use, and how they look. Limits on the how smart the monsters are and their variety.

With Virtual tabletop anything you can scan or draw on the computer becomes available. This require far less development and can reuse much of the existing material we have all ready.

In the end however advancing computer technology in software and hardware will take care of the problem. Likely the virtual tabletops will be something like running NWN 1.

Quote from: James J SkachThis is what has been kicking around for some time, even before the issue of a 4th edition came about. Perhaps it's one of the things that gets into my sore spot- because with 4th edition, it seems to me that someone got it into their heads that WoW really is their competition - and I think that's a mistake.

I am of the (completely subjective!) opinion that with today's computing power, a really good translation of the Pen & Paper rule set, and to a significant extent experience, could be produced that would set up D&D for a much more positive future.

I get the feeling that 4e is a holding pattern until a digital/paper 5e can be created. The question is will it be a MMORPG, or a really cool translation of the table-top experience - complete with a rethinking of the tools available.

we shall see...we shall see....

From what I can tell, that's right - they do think that WoW is their competition, and overall in a general sense they're right.   A lot of kids play WoW incessantly.   They think it's cool.   They don't know about P&P RPGs and even if they do, their opinion is simple and direct:  They are too hard to bother with compared with WoW which does "everything" for you.   That they are missing an entire dimension of creativity makes no difference to them.  It's like telling someone who is eating a Big Mac that they could start a farm and create their own much healthier, and tastier food.   Their answer is 99.99%:  So what - leave me alone - I want to enjoy my Big Mac.  

So in that sense WotC is competing with MMORPGs, and they are trying to figure out how to compete.   Their answer is to rewrite the existing P&P RPG so that it more closely conforms to WoW in the hopes that the Big Mac eaters will look at the new Big Mac Farm, where you grow your own food, but produce in the end something that looks like a Big Mac, except it tastes totally different and has large chunks of carrots, and the bun is made of sour dough.   The people who are running the show there think this is their only possible chance, and if they don't do it that WotC is doomed because they will never be able to compete with MMORPGs in the future.   The reason being that MMORPGs may half-suck today, but in the future they will only get better and better.   Smart MMORPG makers are going to add more and more P&P flexibility to their systems.  It's a natural course of their evolution.   And that's what makes WotC worry.

However, their efforts at making E4 conform to WoW standards to try to woo over WoW players is ... er ... difficult to comprehend.   It seems more likely that they will gain no new converts this way, and only succeed in alienating their existing player base who finds the entire trend offensive becuase it caters to the Big Mac eaters - and we're all farmers here.  

Overall, if my assessment is right, we won't have WotC to worry about for very long anyway.   Unless they completely change course and figure out that their demographic is a relatively small group of intelligent creative people who will never prefer MMORPGs over what they can do with their own intellect on the table top.  

That said:  There is room for a hybrid computer system that helps GMs.  Ryan Dancey himself alluded to this in the footnotes of his 2000 Market Survey.   The only problem with the effort is one of thinking through exactly how it would work, and drawing clear boundrys around it so that it doesn't foolishy half-morph into a semi-MMORPG.   It's a trick question.   But it can be done.   And will be, reasonably soon.   But probably not by WotC, based on what their current tendencies look like.   I think they tried with ETools and got burned.   It would be a long time before they go through that again, I'm guessing.

Quote from: John MorrowIf MMORPGs are so hot, why shouldn't I just go play the real thing instead of a cheap paper and pencil imitation?

Because they are different games.

Guinness makes a no-alcohol beer called "Kaliber".  I described it to my brother thusly:

"It's an interesting, hop-flavored, sparkling roasted wheat beverage that is actually quite tasty.  It simply bears absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to beer."

I've been playing World of Warcraft for about three months.

It's fun, but it bears only a superficial resemblance to TTRPG.  I get ENTIRELY different things out of the two pursuits.

I refuse to believe that I'm the only person in the world for whom this is true.

Quote from: KoltarNope - they're mostly bad for real RPGs.

They steal time that those people could be around the table playing REAL role-playing games with clattering dice and character sheets in hand.


- Ed C.




(Can you tell that I have 2 WoW players in my group and it really annoys me at times?)

The plural of anecdote is not data.  You are smart enough to know that.

I've made this challenge other places, and I make it here:  Show me non-anecdotal, hard evidence that people are leaving TTRPGS for MMORPGS.

The bozos in your game talking about WoW constantly?  Three years ago in a game I was in,there were three clowns who would not shut the FUCK up about Babylon 5.

People leaving TTRPGs and playing MMORPGS?  Since 1974 I've seen lots of people stop playing TTRPGs and do other things.

My point (and I do have one) is that the people leaving TTRPGs aren't "deserting TTRPGs for MMORPGs".  They're quitting playing TTRPGs.  If MMORPGs did not exist, they'd still exit the TTRPG hobby.

I defy the universe to prove me wrong with good, solid data.

@Saladman

3e was designed with computer implementation in mind. Easier to code into a computer was one of many design goals.

Quote from: Old GeezerI defy the universe to prove me wrong with good, solid data.

I'm thinking the problem with your request is that no such good solid data exists, or if it does exist, its not available to the public.   Therefore we have no good solid data to go on.   All we have are anecdotes and common sense, and a "feel for how things are going" and guesswork.   If good solid data is a requirement for this discussion then we're going to have to end the discussion.   But most people don't really want to end the discussion.  So we make stabs at what we *think* is going on.   Yes, most of these stabs are probably wrong.   But that's life.   I say we stab away for the fun of it.

Conversely, if anyone knows of sources for afore mentioned good solid data, please fork over links.   I'd be curious indeed to take a look.

Here you go:

Quote from: Wizards of the Coast Market ResearchOne conclusion we draw from this data is that people who play electronic games still find time to play TRPGs; it appears that these two pursuits are "complementary" or "noncompetitive" outside the scope of the macroeconomic "disposable income" competition.

What you see with a lot of MMORPGs are people who NEVER played TRPGs playing.  The issue isn't "Why are we losing players to MMORPGs" it's "Why aren't all those MMORPG players trying out our games?"  

That's a VERY different question, and the requires very different solutions.

Quote from: Old GeezerBecause they are different games.

As they make D&D more like WoW, those differences become less significant, which is my point.  If people at WotC think that role-players are looking for an MMORPG experience, what makes them think they can offer something to that audience that's better than just playing an MMORPG?

Quote from: Old GeezerI refuse to believe that I'm the only person in the world for whom this is true.

I'm the only person in my group that doesn't play MMORPGs religiously. They try every new one that comes out and play WoW and some spaceship game (EVE Online?) constantly. And yet we still get together every week to play TTRPGs.

The Fear the Boot guys (popular RPG podcast) all play online games extensively.

Quote from: VBWyrdeI'm thinking the problem with your request is that no such good solid data exists, or if it does exist, its not available to the public.   Therefore we have no good solid data to go on.   All we have are anecdotes and common sense, and a "feel for how things are going" and guesswork.   If good solid data is a requirement for this discussion then we're going to have to end the discussion.   But most people don't really want to end the discussion.  So we make stabs at what we *think* is going on.   Yes, most of these stabs are probably wrong.   But that's life.   I say we stab away for the fun of it.

Conversely, if anyone knows of sources for afore mentioned good solid data, please fork over links.   I'd be curious indeed to take a look.

Mkay, I have nothing against playing "It's me, the eighth dwarf, Stabby."  But let's not mistake hypotheses for facts.

MY hypothesis is that these people would leave TTRPGs anyway.

EDIT:  Basically, I contend that people are confusing correlation with causality.  People leave TTRPGs because the entertainment derived is not worth the opportunity cost of time.  This does not require a "MMORPGs stealing people from TTRPG" situation, which is what many people are claiming -- that there is a CLEAR AND NECESSARY PATH.

Tain't so, sez I.

Quote from: James McMurrayI'm the only person in my group that doesn't play MMORPGs religiously. They try every new one that comes out and play WoW and some spaceship game (EVE Online?) constantly. And yet we still get together every week to play TTRPGs.

Right.

Because they're getting something out of the TTRPG they don't get online.

(Or was that your point, and I'm just being thick?)

Quote from: James McMurrayI'm the only person in my group that doesn't play MMORPGs religiously. They try every new one that comes out and play WoW and some spaceship game (EVE Online?) constantly. And yet we still get together every week to play TTRPGs.

Same here. Also, from conversations with them, they realize it's two separate hobbies. They don't play MMORPGs as a substitute for TTRPGs.

Regards,
David R