Quote from: CallousSince I only get the little red X instead of all of the pictures, I have to guess what they are.  

I think the thread is thusly more fun for me...

That's odd. Are you behind a firewall at work or something similar? The pics are hosted at various humor websites, but they all want you to share the pics (most have cut-and-pastable links) so I don't know what else it might be.

Then again, if you don't like hilarious kittehs, perhaps you shouldn't investigate too deeply.

Not all of mine have cats. I'm all avante-garde and shit.



Edit: Better. Smaller. Improved pidgin.

Quote from: CallousSince I only get the little red X instead of all of the pictures, I have to guess what they are.  

I think the thread is thusly more fun for me...

Without the pictures, a huge chunk of what's left is about everybody playing games the same way and not remembering if they used a DM screen one week ago.

That seems kind of depressing from where I stand

Quote from: Christmas ApeNot all of mine have cats. I'm all avante-garde and shit.



Edit: Better. Smaller. Improved pidgin.

Take a Laugh Point, Christmas Ape...

Quote from: Consonant DudeWithout the pictures, a huge chunk of what's left is about everybody playing games the same way and not remembering if they used a DM screen one week ago.

That seems kind of depressing from where I stand

Quote from: Consonant DudeYeah, I think you missed the point on that point in two respects.

1-The particulars of the situations (somehow, it seems to have turned into a gladiatorial fight between a buttkicking version of you and a 75 pound wolf)

2-The fact you wouldn't have to play such a person. It's just a power scale. It's not just for heroes. It's for everybody. You decide how heroic a starting character should be. But you have room for weaker characters.

Verily, I am the professional wolf fighter at the local Wolf Haven...

Wanna see my scars?

Its not me, man: Its humanity. Of all of natures creatures that should be feared, the wolf is pretty damn low on the list, barely qualifying in metaphor. I would never suggest a pack of wolves is the same as a lone wolf, but give the choice between wrasslin' a wolf for dinner and doing the same to a wild boar, a bear, a tiger... what have you, the wolf gets added to the plate, buttkicking mythic me or ordinary everyday me who knows who sits where on the 'dangerous' scale. Those other animals? Them I let have whatever dinner is available as long is it ain't me. If it is me, I can only hope that my heroicly fearless demise is somehow worth points in the afterlife vs the guy that dies cowering in the corner.   Maybe I'll get lucky and be like the old dude with the pocketknife who took out the bear (awesome story, and I'm so glad I didn't get it second hand, I'da never believed it that way...).

Wolves aren't feared by farmers and tillers of the soil, they are hated because they kill livestock and MAYBE stray children... if any are around during a really bad winter.  

To bring it back to your earlier post the problem is both the housecat and the 1st level dude. Until your default starting scale can accomodate both without making a mockery of the human species, it is going to seriously violate my suspension of disbelief.  I don't care how heroic your heroic scale is, I still want 'people' to be at least as tough as real people.  I want the ordinary part of the scale to match up with the ordinary, not the 'wet toilet tissue'.

Quote from: SpikeIts not me, man: Its humanity. Of all of natures creatures that should be feared, the wolf is pretty damn low on the list, barely qualifying in metaphor.

At this point it's kinda irrelevant, but I'll still clarify anyway. What I mean is that I didn't picture my wolf quite as a 20th century, Earthly creature. I pictured it as a fantasy one. A more impressive beast and one that would be particularly cunning. It's a scenario I use to run often when I was younger (the 365th variation on Jaws, really) and never got any complaint. The adventure was far from being a straightforward fight, BTW. More of a cat and mouse game and very fun.

As for real life wolves, I think you are shortselling them a bit.  

Quote from: SpikeTo bring it back to your earlier post the problem is both the housecat and the 1st level dude. Until your default starting scale can accomodate both without making a mockery of the human species, it is going to seriously violate my suspension of disbelief.

That was the idea of the scale. An attempt to make heroes more potent and fix the cat problem. IMO, it does go a long way to addressing the problem if the first level character isn't a dungeon-delving hero because it gives you room as DM to have weaker beasties, dependants, etc...

Granted, you have to understand this is a quick suggestion. I didn't spend hours working the scale and the minutia. My problem is that D&D has a nice linear progression (1 level, 2 levels, 3 levels) with which you can smoothly add stuff. For instance, 3 level = 3 Hit Dice. But if you start a hero at first level, then everything less powerful than him has to be compressed in half hit die and tiny fractions.

If a 1st level character is a young, capable adventurer, all of a sudden, you don't have much room to differenciate between a healthy peasant, an old wisewoman, a poodle and a house cat.

I think we both want the same thing: a heroic game. We're just not agreeing on how to achieve this, which is cool

Quote from: Consonant DudeAt this point it's kinda irrelevant, but I'll still clarify anyway. What I mean is that I didn't picture my wolf quite as a 20th century, Earthly creature. I pictured it as a fantasy one. A more impressive beast and one that would be particularly cunning. It's a scenario I use to run often when I was younger (the 365th variation on Jaws, really) and never got any complaint. The adventure was far from being a straightforward fight, BTW. More of a cat and mouse game and very fun.

Well, if you are talking DIRE wolves, well, yeah. But really, those are more like bears that run a lot and hit the gym three days a week. :eek:

Quote from: CDAs for real life wolves, I think you are shortselling them a bit.

I didn't bring up 'Wolf Haven' off the top of my head. One nice thing (the only nice thing??) about living in hippie-land (that is the pacific northwest...) is that you get those damn conservationists occasionally doing cool things like running...wolf havens.

Yeah, a wolf is gonna break my arm, or my leg...whatever it gets it's jaws on. Yeah, it's gonna suck. But I am bigger and, like all humans, I cheat.  Now, maybe my 90 lb cousin might be in serious trouble, but then again... she's human, she can cheat too. Then again, shes one of those smart-sickly sorts that make a great cliche'd wizard, so even at first level she'd probably blast it. If this were a game.  

Quote from: CDThat was the idea of the scale. An attempt to make heroes more potent and fix the cat problem. IMO, it does go a long way to addressing the problem if the first level character isn't a dungeon-delving hero because it gives you room as DM to have weaker beasties, dependants, etc...

Granted, you have to understand this is a quick suggestion. I didn't spend hours working the scale and the minutia. My problem is that D&D has a nice linear progression (1 level, 2 levels, 3 levels) with which you can smoothly add stuff. For instance, 3 level = 3 Hit Dice. But if you start a hero at first level, then everything less powerful than him has to be compressed in half hit die and tiny fractions.

If a 1st level character is a young, capable adventurer, all of a sudden, you don't have much room to differenciate between a healthy peasant, an old wisewoman, a poodle and a house cat.

I think we both want the same thing: a heroic game. We're just not agreeing on how to achieve this, which is cool

Sure you do: A healthy peasant should be able to pitchfork a wolf. An old wisewoman has a sub-par con and str score but knows better and sends the healthy peasant out to do the pitchforking, and the poodle and the housecat don't do anything like human scale damage unless possessed by demons or something.   One of those 'if it crits you THEN you take a point of damage, otherwise it just stings like a bitch' situations.  That even holds true for grandma.

Now: Given that I have cats at home (emergency rations...) if you wanted to give them, say, a trip attack, I wouldn't object.

Quote from: SpikeHow, in the name of all that is holy, unholy, profane, divine or even Spoon, did I somehow become attached to this 'playstyles' debate in your mind? You've dogged me on it in two forums, James and I, to my mind, never once weighed in at all: for, against, or commenting from the peanut gallery! WTF man?

Dogged you?  C'mon Spike, I mentioned it once in the other thread and put a wink after it as it seemed that you were one the verge of talking about things better suited to this thread.

And, honestly, I didn't "attach you" to the debate.  I'm simply responding to the things you've said here. Though you may not believe it, I'm trying to tell you that the things you are saying could easily be seen (and have been by me) as a dismissal of the way I played the game in early days.

Now you might not like that style, and that's perfectly fine by me. It's fine if you don't want a wolf to be able to challenge a human.  It's fine if you have a problem with a specific anomaly in the cat-versus-human case (one that I agree with, btw – including the trip attack comment which was hilarious due to it's truth). In your game, the wolf is unimportant - cool by me.

But you conflate the problems and, in the process, appear to be writing off a segment of players who preferred to play in a less-than-heroic manner than you. That's how you got "attached;" though, quite honestly, I didn't attach you to the debate about play styles so much as pointing out that you were ignoring the way a bunch of people played. Unless you're saying that the "super heroic"/"cinematic" was the only way people really ever played (similar to Seanchai) – in which case I can only wholeheartedly disagree wth you about that.

Quote from: SpikeLet it go, man. I don't want to talk about wether or not playstyles exist.  I want to talk about the fact that a grown man in good health, regardless of his life expirences to that point should, or should not, be able to kill a wild animal that weighs some 75 lbs ,if it's well fed, by himself.

If I were to guess, I'd agree that the odds are the former would kill the latter. I also know that there are a thousand things that could happen in the mano a canus that could lead to a not-so-friendly result. Allowing for that chance doesn't seem so crazy; but you seem to be offended by the very thought.

Quote from: SpikeNot a 900 lb bear, though the evidence is in that YES it is POSSIBLE (not, by any means likely however) to do so.

The other James pokes fun at my Housecat rant, but seriously: If I want to play at that level I'll find a game about being a mouse, not a game where supposedly I can be a credible threat to a dragon.

Well, IIRC, I didn't bring up the bear. The way I see it:

• Bear has good chance of success.
• Wolf has an outside chance if things go wrong.
• House Cat is just plain silly – and I agree with your assessment.

Quote from: SpikeThe other James pokes fun at my Housecat rant, but seriously: If I want to play at that level I'll find a game about being a mouse, not a game where supposedly I can be a credible threat to a dragon.

But, really, that's just it. I played AD&D, a lot, and I don't remember ever thinking that at 1st level I was supposed to be a credible threat to a dragon. Not at 3rd level either. Hell, at 5th Level, even when the Magic User gets the Fireball, he is not, alone, a credible threat to a Dragon (and before anyone gets nuts about it, I'm talking about an adult dragon, not something just hatched from an egg no more vicious than a house cat).

Could you play it that way? I suppose you could. It would take quite a few magic items and some house ruling – but you could do it. Hell, maybe there's a way to do it without significant changes and we just never sought it out. And I'm not saying you didn't play AD&D, or that anyone else who thinks in the same "super heroic" terms didn't play it, and have fun with it; or that it's not a perfectly valid preference.

Quote from: SpikeNever mind that somehow both Haffrung and John Morrow seem to think I have some agenda to tell stories ABOUT Conan and not just BE Conan at the table.   So tell me: Who the fuck is spreading all this horseshit about me? I've been posting here long enough and voluminously to not be an absolute stranger.

Well, I won't fight their battles. I'm not sure how the Story thing got into your other thread – it's not the concern I had about what you were saying. And I do know you, which is why the path in this thread was quite surprising and why I said "I'm sorry you feel that way."  It really seems you're saying to play a gritty game with death ever-present is not a valid preference - and that surprised me. Now I could be wrong, but I'm not so sure how else to interpret this:

Quote from: SpikeThus, no matter where the game started every character was once 1st level. And, if at first level, that character was incapable of hunting and slaying a wolf alone, he was weak and pitiful and unheroic and probably had to be rescued by some NPC, possibly even NPCs that even lacked...gasp!... class levels.

No hero could bear the shame. Unless, you know, that was their who deal, being the guy that overcame being a wuss or something. But we don't talk about... Those Guys...

Except a hero that somehow barely survived the wolf encounter without NPC intervention and somehow, through perseverance, skill, and a little bit of luck, makes it to 9th Level.

Quote from: SpikeI'm just going to put my 'gaming stances' into my sig like I'm on some fucking dating site.

"Hi, I'm Spike. I like pretending to kill some shit with big hunks of metal. My preferred polygons are D11's, and I have never played in, or ran, a module adventure. I own the worlds largest dungeon, however, but my players got bored of being strangled to death by darkmantles.  Sometimes, when I GM, I kill players that annoy me. That's right, players. I am currently seeking conversations with other gamers that don't assume that I want a narrative flow out of my game. Pet peeves include being asked my opinion about wether or not Playstyles exist."

The only reason I'd need to know what "style" you played is if we were going to play together. Since most of the family I have in the great northwest I don't really interact with, you and I are unlikely to cross paths anytime soon.  After this thread, I'm doubting you would want to even if we were to cross paths...

Quote from: James J SkachI'm more and more convinced that it's not that people all play the same way, it's that everyone assumes everyone else is playing they way they play - or prefers to.

Everyone assumes that everybody else is just like them.  Not just in gaming.

People - full grown adults - get killed by pit bulls from time to time.  Smaller than wolves.

Quote from: Old GeezerPeople - full grown adults - get killed by pit bulls from time to time.  Smaller than wolves.

A college student that I met while living in Japan as part of a role-playing group was terrified of my cats.  He was from Brooklyn and apparently an old woman with a lot of cats passed away and nobody noticed for a while.  Since the cats got hungry and couldn't operate the can opener...

(Of course she was already dead at the time.)

Quote from: SpikeHow, in the name of all that is holy, unholy, profane, divine or even Spoon, did I somehow become attached to this 'playstyles' debate in your mind? You've dogged me on it in two forums, James and I, to my mind, never once weighed in at all: for, against, or commenting from the peanut gallery! WTF man?

I wasn't trying to dog you.  But if you want to understand why you've gotten attached to the "playstyles" debate, it's because you've been tossing out blanket claims that just don't ring true to people who have different ideas of about what RPGs are about than you do.  Once you start making claims about what role-playing games are like or mean to people, you've waded into the style theory pool, whether you know you've done it or not.

Quote from: James McMurrayI'm just here making myself laugh.

Clearly that isn't the case.  

Seanchai

You're right. I forgot about the other people I was making laugh. Sorry bout dat.