Quote from: SpikeBecause, god damn it, we want to be Heroes. Even HEROES, in all caps. Not a tiny cog of a single heroic gestalt, surgically fastened at the hip to his team, and dependent upon them for every shred of cool he has.

Who you callin' we, paleface.

My players don't want to be heroes. I know that sounds like crazy talk these days, or like I'm taking a stance just for the sake of internet arguments (as Seanchai would have us believe). But we honestly do not play to tell heroic stories about guys with destiny who grow up to save the world. We just don't. We play D&D to explore cool places (usually dungeons) from the perspective of cool-looking dudes with axes and magical cloaks.

It occurs to me that one of the reasons my group is out of step with the norm today is we started playing D&D really young. I mean, I was nine years old when I started DMing. We weren't trying to emulate Tolkien heroic fantasy because we hadn't read the books yet. We had read some Conan comics and seen a few Sinbad movies. That was about it for influences. D&D was a genre to us. And D&D, at the time we discovered it, was about exploring an imaginary underworld with Krago of the Mountains and Afton Rengate, pulled straight from the back of B1 with their stats ready to go.

Ultimately, it was about maps, not stories. We loved maps. Treasured and guarded them. Even glancing at the DMs map was grounds for having your PC killed outright, maybe even the player being kicked out the game. If you knew the map beforehand, you had utterly spoiled the game experience as we cherished it - exploration of the labyrinth underworld, and returning to the surface with its riches.

That was it. System mastery? We barely fucking understood what AC was. 30 years later and a couple of my players still couldn't tell you what HP bonus a 16 Con gives you. Our only guide to how to play was the old pastel modules. And when all the module says for an encounter is: 2 ogres with clubs. AC 5, HD 3+1, HP 22, 17. Dmg 1-10, you don't expect to have to know any more than that about your own PC. Personalize the weapons and armour a bit ('my guy has horns on his helmet'), add some assorted magic items, and draw up a character portrait (whatever happened to those?). If you happen to develop some personal traits along the way (always starts looting bodies while the fight is still going on, wears a bearskin), then you're about as richly drawn as you're going to get in our games.

I'm not saying that was ever the most common way to play D&D (though it certainly wasn't uncommon in 1981). But things change. Pop culture changes. Gamers change. Games change.

The first time I picked up a module that had a pre-scripted story (I think it was Rahasia) in about 1986, I knew modules were being designed with different goals in mind than White Plume Mountain. We didn't want to play epic fantasy storytelling. I bought a couple more dungeons, but found them pretty much useless for our game.

We went to strictly homebrew campaigns for about 12 years and lost all contact with the wider RPG world. We were like a Pictcairn Island of D&D. We gradually did away with most of the books and played our game with the To Hit table, the Saving throw table, and the spells from the PHB. Everything else was decided by DM fiat.

Anyway, I digress. My group are like those genomes found in Iceland. They tell the tale of a different era, untouched by outside influences. And believe me, we play a dramatically different style from what I see presumed in 3.x rules and adventures, and described on discussion boards. And if a troll on an RPG discussion board wants to deny that, he can go right ahead. My players will be rolling a save versus poison in the crumbled tunnels beneath the Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan while he plays whichever iteration of D&D turns his crank.

Quote from: James McMurrayI was actually saving this for Set's next "4e will destroy the world" rant, but since this is the 3rd time in as many days Spike has ranted about housecats vs. commoners:

Durrrrrrrrrrrrr, ignore me. Second name Spike, not Sett.

*goes back to his cough syrup*

Quote from: Christmas ApeThis suggests to me we upgraded to the ENWorld-style Coventry ignore lists at some point?

How does that work?

Quote from: ImperatorHow does that work?

Unless quoted, someone on your IL doesn't show up for you, not even as a little "This user is on your ignore list" thing. Really cuts down on the urge to peek.

Quote from: Christmas ApeUnless quoted, someone on your IL doesn't show up for you, not even as a little "This user is on your ignore list" thing. Really cuts down on the urge to peek.

Wow, cool.
 
Also, I would suggest to change the theme of the pics. Given that you are saving them for the next time Sett goes ballistic, I should start using pics of emos, goths and shit like that.

Quote from: ImperatorWow, cool.
 
Also, I would suggest to change the theme of the pics. Given that you are saving them for the next time Sett goes ballistic, I should start using pics of emos, goths and shit like that.

?

/obvious

Quote from: Christmas Ape?
 
/obvious

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

Quote from: ImperatorYou, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

:bow:

I think I'm with Haffrung here although a bit older and started a bit earlier.  

We wanted to be heroes in the vien of having to struggle to survive and doing heroic deeds where we could very well lose but for our daring and strategy.  Not superheroes where defeat lasts only until the next episode and our largest struggle is against manufactured angst.

We wanted to come up through the trenches, not be some son of a demi-god with a destiny to save/destroy the world, or be descended from a race of ubermen.  Give us no destiny except the ones we make in travelling from adventure to adventure.  More like Conan and Fafrd than Aragon and Elric.   Even though we had read Tolkein, REH, ERB, Arthur, all the Greek myths, saw Sinbad, etc., we wanted a seething, virile world like Hyperborea of dark secrets melded with the races and elegance of Tolkein.  

We wanted the "what if" and the exploration of the world of the GMs creating, we wanted free wheeling high adventure, not a predestined plot line to power.  We came from wargaming where you had the "what if" of what could I have done given the resources of x.  Not the "what if" I was superman how I would rule the world.

I don't know if that gets to the OP of offending someone.

Quote from: SpikeThink of the Cake, man!

There is no cake.

- Q

This thread has taken a turn for the better! I fully credit my intervention for that! And now, I need to pursue my work!

Quote from: SpikeNo hero could bear the shame. Unless, you know, that was their who deal, being the guy that overcame being a wuss or something. But we don't talk about... Those Guys...

Apeshit.

Part of what made being a 9th level Lord so damn cool was knowing you came from there.

It's the same reason Parzifal is a much better character than Galahad.  Parzifal fucks up royally and loses it all, and has to rebuild from ground zero.  Galahad just has everything handed to him.

The more lowly you start, the more of a stud you are when you hit 10th level.

Quote from: James J SkachNo, you disputed the existence of play styles when they were brought up to explain why 4e might not be the right game for some folks.

That's what I said. I didn't bring up play styles. Others did.

Quote from: James J SkachSo the existence of play styles is very important to your position.

Except I was disputing

Quote from: James J SkachIf they do exist, then it's valid to consider a game with respect to whether or not it adequately supports a play style for a particular individual.

You're absolutely correct. But 4e not supporting existing play styles is far from a forgone conclusion.

Which is why I don't need play styles. It's the folks trying to prove that 4e is objectively bad who do.

Quote from: James J SkachIn order to combat that, you simply must not let play styles, and peoples' preferences for them, exist.

Again, you're incorrect. I was combating Haffrung's assertion before and after the play styles debate. For example, play styles were barely touched upon in the original quests thread.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanPete wins !

Yeah. If you're going to embarass yourself by posting pictures of crap in a thread a la TBP, at least post something cool...

Seanchai