I'm asking this because I'm clueless why people enjoy games like Everquest and FFXI. I'm not saying there bad games so much as I personally don't enjoy playing them. I suppose I'm more of the exploring type of gamer, and powergaming just doesn't appeal to me. I don't get any pleasure by seeing my character hit higher integers on the screen, or upgrading my equipment. So, what keeps powergamers going? Maybe you can't explain how games such as those mentioned above keeps you motivated. I reckoned that competition between friends could be a major impetus for the level-treadmill, as well. To me, grinding is repetitive and boring. So why do people enjoy games when grinding is the pivotal factor? Do they enjoy it?

a.d.d.i.c.t.i.o.n.

Quote from: signoftheserpenta.d.d.i.c.t.i.o.n.

So is online gaming just a drug?

it's the level thing, addictive pure and simple.

Someplace... can't find it... somebody on an MMORPG design team was talking about this.

They use the "slot machine" method of payoff... frequent, little, rewards.  Just like on a nickel slot, you get lots of small payoffs.

People will play longer if they're getting lots of small rewards rather than one big one.  A slot machine player will play longer for 10 50 cent payouts than for one big five dollar payout, even though the net result is the same.

I don't know why people are this way, but the vast majority of them are.  Grinding scratches this same itch.

A few of the players in the local area enjoy it because it's group interaction that they can do at any time.  Get off work at two in the morning?  Aren't many game groups going at that time so why not play a couple of hours on WoW to relax a bit.

The play anytime factor seems to be really big with those that I know.  

Also the social interaction.  They have full blown conversations going on with other people while playing.  The guilds they start usually set up forums, they get to know each other and all that.

Instant social interaction with a dose of escapism built in at any time of the day or night.

Of course the addiction factor is there also.  But then again I know lots of D&D players who basically do the same thing as far as playing just to gain levels and abilities.

The others have hit good points so far but the games you describe require you to be competent in battle just so you can explore said areas.  I've heard about games where exploring and rp are the main focus...second life, the sims, etc.  However, if you want to explore in WoW, EQ, FX, D&D, then you are in a catch-22.  Unforunately for some, there aren't a lot of MMORPGs where you start off at maximum ability or if you are rewarded by exploration, trade (finding someone rare in one area and selling it in another for instance), and roleplaying.

Here's something i once was thinking about. I could spend 5 hours grinding up gold to pay for something that I wanted, or just spend $6 buying gold illegally. If make something like $15 an hour, the question was, were those five hours passable? Did I have fun doing them, enough to play the game that much longer? Usually I'd have watched TV while playing, or chatted with other peeps while grinding. Then I wouldn't feel guilty about having spent money "On a game"...
It also comes down to "being busy"...something our culture puts a lot of stress upon. We'd like to say that we're doing something and attaining goals at all points, even when, idiotically, we're doing something for entertainment. Instead of saying "I'm doing this for fun", we say "I'm doing this to get gold to pay for something that will make me do more damage and more effective". That second makes us feel like we're actually doing something busy-wise, which is in its own way an effective reward.
This is only second to the other big reward in life (and especially gamerdom): "For free". Practically ev eryone has met someone who says they haven't spent money on certain things, or has gotten free things. Like those people who have sold their accounts and paid off all the time they invested.
And honestly, can we really complain or shoot down people who accomplish both of these things? If someone is satisfied beyond their low-paying job, and wants to spend their times feeling worthwhile when they would have to spend effort doing things like making a family, learning a language, or employing themselves in practical matters, that's the choice they have made. And, if evolution says anything, they will die out...or become the future low-middle class niche market.

I think Dungeon Siege removes some of the "fun" aspects of grinding, and presents what essentially is a tedious point and click game. I mean, the game looks nice and sounds nice, but the game does all the fun stuff for you.

warcraft's economy is so fucked up because the devs are totally unwilling to ban the exchange of money between players. that would stop the problem instantnly.

Quote from: signoftheserpentwarcraft's economy is so fucked up because the devs are totally unwilling to ban the exchange of money between players. that would stop the problem instantnly.

I'm not a WoW player, so forgive me if I sound hopelessly niave, but I am curious ... How does the exchange of money between players effect WoW economics, and what problem would it solve to ban it?   Thanks!

- Mark

The popularity of the game means there is a thriving industry where chinese people are paid to harvest gold in game so it can be sold, via dodgy websites to lazy players. It's an attractive option and in every major city in the game there are characters who will spam these website in chat (and privately as well). The biggest problem is that a lot of players buy this gold which makes it far too easy to buy the really good treasure (the stuff that wins you pvp battles for example) on the auction house. This then has the effect of pushing up the prices out of the reach of players at the levels the items were intended for because unless you spend all the livelong day farming gold or likewise buy it online, you won't afford it.

If gold couldn't be exchanged between players people buyting gold from these sites couldn't do so since they receive in-game via a character-character transaction (players can communicate and send each other items and money in the game via a mail system).

I think the main goal of doing anything on an mmorpg should be to have fun. Some people like their goals to be a bit difficult to acquire, but if that's what floats there boat... While others don't get much entertainment solely from grinding and raising their character's level (though evidently most players do.) I like their to be variety in the game, but it seems to me that the "objective" of most players is first, to reach the level camp, and second, upgrade their gear, get the latest tier, etc. What do you guys think about that?

It seems to be an extension of levels and perhaps status, although one could buy their way there too.  It must be fun for most people but where are the days of people being "roleplaying officals and creating fun events for no reward" among other things.  Again, no words of wisdom here, just a couple of random observations.

Grinding is not fun. What IS fun is the perception that you're improving faster than you're supposed to thanks to an unfair advantage. For example, you might get a powerful item that lets you progress faster than normal, hunt a particularly rewarding species or use a smart tactic to get ahead. These advantages aren't all illusionary, there really are some players who have an advantage.

My favorite story was the first guy to hit level 70 in WoW. He did it by aggrivating monsters and leading them back to his buddies. They'd kill the monsters for him but he'd get the XP since the monsters were mad at him when they died. He did that from level 60 to 67. Once he hit 67 he joined up with a second group that had been power leveling on there own and were therefore strong enough to kill the monsters he needed to get from 67 to 70. (He needed the second group because the first group didn't get XP from killing his monsters.) Thanks to teamwork, he managed to max out his character in under a week.

I don't play grind games any more, but I used to get a kick out of issuing a bunch of orders in Dungeon Keeper and Settlers, going to bed, and then checking in after breakfast. I think people like me enjoy cheating the system by multi-tasking. Sort of like winning with an arm tied behind your back.