Quote from: droogI don't think it's about history if it's anything like DitV.

As said in another thread, a game in which curses, ghosts and deals with the Devil have mechanical effects instead of being merely superstitions among sailors cannot really be "historically accurate."

Quote from: AlnagSo can this game actually run without raping?

Actually, there was one little tidbit in the RPGnet thread which some of you may have missed: sinning in itself, no matter how gentle or brutal it is, doesn't even make your character a better fighter. Combat efficiency is determined by the "Brinkmanship" rating which equals to the highest of the four stats. That could be Brutality or Devil, yes, but Ambition or Soul as well. Raising Devil is simply easy in comparison to the others, but it will damn the character since while Devil can be put down again through redemption (which reduces the stat to zero unless the redeemed sinner later returns to his old ways), lost Soul can never be recovered.

Also, every roll involves one of those stats against the difficulty defined by another, so even the slightest change carries a whole slew of mechanical consequences.

Quote from: StuartVincent has posted some of his notes from the GenCon Poison'd game.

...

WTF

Holy god.

It gets even worse if you read the first reply, from one of the players in that game. He explains how the ship was "cursed", and that his PC had found out that to break the curse he'd have to swab the deck with a fellow PC's blood, but then the female PC in question broke into the dude's room and started going at his ass with a dildo and he took it willingly and it was totally beautiful because they were damned and going to hell but it was OK because they'd found true love deep inside their asses.

Is there any element of that actual play that anyone can find which elevates it beyond the level of the nastier sort of Pirates of the Caribbean slash fiction?

Someone should totally cross-post that shit to the infamous "Creepy Gamer" thread on RPGnet.

If that isn't prime material for such a thread, I don't know what is.

Quote from: Elliot WilenWait, you'll have to spell this out for me. Maybe other people are saying "it's the people, not the game", but Vincent came right out and agreed that the game contributed to the play.

I play GNS Cop!

GNS-SDM isn't the part of the theory that says reward mechanics  drive / influence play. When Vincent posts

Quote from: lumply on RPG.netSystem matters. My game design created, or at least contributed to, a play environment in which someone had their character commit a horrible murder-rape.

He's conflating the part of the theory that says "system matters" with the part that says "game design can contribute to a play environment."

Certainly most people believe system influences play -- but GNS SDM is specifically about how System aligns or doesn't align with Creative Agendas and how CA's relate to play (getting your CA realized is where the fun comes from).

Necro-buggering, as any GNS Cop will tell you, can take place under *any* CA (and virtually any system).

To be fair, if you spell out Vincent's whole train of logic he's consistent with GNS/TBM... GNS terms, Story NOW! (I always imagine Veruca Salt saying it) comes from answering moral questions during play -- and those questions do appear to be posed by the game...

This isn't a huge mistake (more of a set of omissions, really), but it's the kind of thing someone who cares about using the theory rigorously would be concerned about, especially given the tendency to drift the theory -- and especially given the tendency for people to use the phrase "System Does Matter" in all kinds of ways.

It's the sort of muddled presentation I'd expect a well-read indie-theory fanboy to make... but not one I'd expect a GNS Cop to make.

Quote from: Elliot WilenThere are fallacies hovering on the sidelines, such as "the play that's encouraged by the game is deep/artistic/more historical than Johnny Depp"...and Vincent himself may have committed one or more of them...but those aren't directly connected to SDM.

This is a stronger claim than pure "System Does Matter", though again it's an implicit and sometimes explicit part of Narrativist hype.

Basically I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that, depending on the kind of play-experience you're looking for, a given game can enhance or impede it, or even encourage behaviors in other players that clash with what you want. But the idea that you can actively reinforce "meaningful play" in a paint-by-numbers fashion is, well, dubious at best, and not only that, the idea of "empowering players" is only a good one until you find yourself playing with people whose empowerment messes up your enjoyment.

[EDIT: clarity]

I don't think anyone is going around saying System Doesn't Matter At All. After all, anyone who's ever played 1st Edition GURPS Supers knows that system-impacts-play.

But for the GNS/TBM makes some claims about how system matters that are highly dubious. The AP report looks to me like basic adolescent "Let's Play Chaotic Evil Characters" stuff that occurs all the time in D&D (which provides damn little mechanical support for over-the-top evil play like necro-rape).

If Nar mechanics really mattered, I don't think you'd see such... similarities.

Cheers,
-E.

Quote from: J ArcaneSomeone should totally cross-post that shit to the infamous "Creepy Gamer" thread on RPGnet.

If that isn't prime material for such a thread, I don't know what is.

Done.

Also, I just noticed that in Vincent's AP he doesn't even give us the full details - in fact, he flat-out refuses to describe some of the stuff that happened.

And yet he happily describes great heaps of rape, fired from all the rape-cannons of His Majesty's Royal Rape Navy.

What the fuck?

Quote from: WarthurAlso, I just noticed that in Vincent's AP he doesn't even give us the full details - in fact, he flat-out refuses to describe some of the stuff that happened.

And yet he happily describes great heaps of rape, fired from all the rape-cannons of His Majesty's Royal Rape Navy.

What the fuck?

Frankly, I think after what's been posted so far, this is one of those moments where I can honestly say I really, really just don't want to know.  

Besides, isn't what we have already more than enough?

Quote from: J ArcaneFrankly, I think after what's been posted so far, this is one of those moments where I can honestly say I really, really just don't want to know.  

Besides, isn't what we have already more than enough?

I think we have enough.

Forge Games by and for Creepy Gamers- live out your sick sexual fantasies! They should sub-title all their products so.

I had to stop reading the trainwreck when I found this gem of a paragraph:

Quote from: LumplyEbenezer had tried to castrate Cuntface. a) To subjugate him, yes. But also b) out of love, like a big brother's, to prevent this very thing.

This reminded me of some child abuse case studies I read in a developmental psychology class.

But doesn't this say it all? One player character wanted to castrate another player character, to subjugate the character and out of love (like a big brother's).

I'm stunned that people are still talking about the game. The AP examples pretty much say all there is to on the subject.  

Talk about free publicity...

Quote from: Vicent BakerWere we comfortable with what we did in the game? Yes. Well - we thought it was horrific, tragic, fitting, gruesome and bad. But whoever was talking, no matter how horrific and bad the things they were saying, never once did we wish they'd shut up.

After the game ended we sat and talked for another three hours or more, as friends. As, in fact, very good friends. None of us wanted to get up and go anywhere else. None of us wanted to open the circle to include anyone who hadn't been there. We split up for the night reluctantly and only very late. It was too good to leave behind.

I wonder, at what point do you stop and think that maybe there is something intrinsically wrong about the whole scenario. I know most intelligent, mature, adults can separate fantasy from reality and understand a game is just a game, but does a line get crossed somewhere when your "pretend" becomes inappropriate. When does "pretend" go from good wholesome fun to not-cool. Are rape, murder and torture all things that can be done in RPGs in good taste?

The whole system matters conversation is becoming laughable. What I'm hearing are game designers playing politician. They'll stand on the podium proclaiming system matters, games they designed help people play a particular way, and yes, it was their game design that made things fun. However, when something questionable comes up and people use the system matters arguments to point the blame back on the designer, then the tune changes. "Sure system matters, but in this instance, it was the players who made all the bad things happen, not the game. But the game still matters! Blame the players, it wasn't my fault, but I still matter!"

It was nice of Jared to stop by and add something to this conversation. Always a pleasure to have Forgites contribute to a discussion and not just plug each other's games. Very refreshing indeed. (Just curious, how many regular posters here stop by the forge, story-games or whatever and drop one liners about how great GURPS or D&D is?).

Quote from: Kyle AaronAll that remains is for The Forge to adopt the Go Play symbol as their trademark. It can go in the corner of each book published by Indie Press Revolution. They can put a little "TM" next to it. Then the irony will be complete

The Forge isn't a company, and Indie Press Revolution does not publish any books (or anything else).

This basically ends the fun for me.
Pretentious guys, and calling them on their shit with my own hysterical and looney internet persona are one thing.

But these people have some serious problems.

I already got the impression when checking out some threads at Vincents Forum. But now he´s officially a person that shouldn´t be discussed at fun places, and his games alongside. Now, I know, the discussion will go on, and his games will still be mentioned. But I think this is not suited for hysterical TEH SWINEWAR!-Fun. This is un-fun, serious shit. And he and his followers bring it into the realm, my realm of RPGs. And I don´t want that. I positively don´t want that.

Please, keep away from our hobby. I hereby stop defending the technical attribute of "RPG-ness" of Thematic Games. Sure there might be other games, that are okay and in reality arwe RPGS, and not bringing up such gameplay. But as DitV and Mr. Baker are a cornerstone of any debate involving Thematic Games, it will be brought up sooner or later.

I urge everyone of you to stop any discussion or mentioning of these Games and their creators alltogether. These people don´t need to be called on their bullshit, they need something else, which nobody online can provide.

I used to be content with the notion that my ravings and attacks were "just as bad as what the forgers do". That was enough for me, showing their idiocy through a different kind of idiocy. But I don´t want to be compared or connected to the Forgers in any way any more. "Being just like them" is now a grave insult. A very grave one.

This is a crucial time for the hobby. If we don´t oust, ignore and shun them now, the hobby will be in serious danger. Outrage generates gadflies like droog, who revel in their rebellious attidude, hipsters and all the like. Only a wall of silence can do the trick. I know it won´t happen.
But I did propose it to all of you to ponder.
Who´s purposes are you furthering with debating these kinds of games?
Outrage is the bread and butter of several people, and the self-proclaimed artistés belong to them.
Outrage is not what is called for.
Ostracism is.

Please leave our hobby. Now.
Leave our conventions, leave our boards, leave our discussions.

Go away. We won´t talk to you anymore.

Quote from: DrewI'm stunned that people are still talking about the game. The AP examples pretty much say all there is to on the subject.  

Talk about free publicity...

I don't buy the "all publicity is good publicity" line. Vincent Baker gains nothing from his new status as the indie Byron Hall, and more than those Republicans in those recent sex scandals got boosts to their careers by being busted for soliciting sex with strangers in public restrooms.