Some idiots are saying that "the OSR are not game designers". They're actually the best collection of RPG game designers of all time.

Some are. Others are just short of copying stuff from the books whole cloth. Labyrinth Lord was an early offender.

Others use the core as a basis and then innovate from there. Scarlet Heroes comes to mind.

It has honestly been all over the place over the course and I've seen some pretty low attempts. And its those sorts that are doing nothing to improve the OSR's already tarnished image.

Quote from: Omega on May 21, 2025, 10:51:21 PMSome are. Others are just short of copying stuff from the books whole cloth. Labyrinth Lord was an early offender.

Others use the core as a basis and then innovate from there. Scarlet Heroes comes to mind.

It has honestly been all over the place over the course and I've seen some pretty low attempts. And its those sorts that are doing nothing to improve the OSR's already tarnished image.

That's not an offense. It's called a retroclone. What we think of as OSR started as all retroclones. You had Labyrinth Lord because Basic wasn't in print anymore, and you had OSRIC because AD&D wasn't in print anymore.

Quote from: Spobo on May 22, 2025, 07:14:46 AM

Quote from: Omega on May 21, 2025, 10:51:21 PMSome are. Others are just short of copying stuff from the books whole cloth. Labyrinth Lord was an early offender.

Others use the core as a basis and then innovate from there. Scarlet Heroes comes to mind.

It has honestly been all over the place over the course and I've seen some pretty low attempts. And its those sorts that are doing nothing to improve the OSR's already tarnished image.

That's not an offense. It's called a retroclone. What we think of as OSR started as all retroclones. You had Labyrinth Lord because Basic wasn't in print anymore, and you had OSRIC because AD&D wasn't in print anymore.

Quite correct. Those who don't know that much about the dawn of the OSR just assume that retro clones were system rip-offs. If you take the time to look into what was unavailable or out of print at that time it becomes clear that retro-clones were produced simply to have an in print version of a beloved game so that designers could produce adventures and other expansion products for popular old school rule sets that would have otherwise been hard to obtain. Who wants to write a B/X adventure when the only way to get the rules is through a secondhand market?

The straight retro clones paved the way for fresh presentations of old school style rules with tweaks and modifications. Swords & Wizardry was great example of this. It has the feel of OD&D, AD&D, and B/X play but isn't an exact copy of of any of them.

Of course, now these classic original rulesets are available to purchase, and some can even be printed via POD. Of course the availability of these products can be yanked at any time if Hasbro decides they no longer want to sell them. That is why the retro clones still have value.

I think most GMs out there are game designers. House Rules are game design. They just don't get paid for it or get acknowledged beyond their table.

The real distinction to me would be Professional Game Designer. If you had one product you were a Professional Game Designer. If you keep producing content for sale you are a Professional Game Designer. If you just House Rule your own game you are an Amateur Game Designer.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on May 22, 2025, 08:37:32 AM

Quote from: Spobo on May 22, 2025, 07:14:46 AM

Quote from: Omega on May 21, 2025, 10:51:21 PMSome are. Others are just short of copying stuff from the books whole cloth. Labyrinth Lord was an early offender.

Others use the core as a basis and then innovate from there. Scarlet Heroes comes to mind.

It has honestly been all over the place over the course and I've seen some pretty low attempts. And its those sorts that are doing nothing to improve the OSR's already tarnished image.

That's not an offense. It's called a retroclone. What we think of as OSR started as all retroclones. You had Labyrinth Lord because Basic wasn't in print anymore, and you had OSRIC because AD&D wasn't in print anymore.

Quite correct. Those who don't know that much about the dawn of the OSR just assume that retro clones were system rip-offs. If you take the time to look into what was unavailable or out of print at that time it becomes clear that retro-clones were produced simply to have an in print version of a beloved game so that designers could produce adventures and other expansion products for popular old school rule sets that would have otherwise been hard to obtain. Who wants to write a B/X adventure when the only way to get the rules is through a secondhand market?

The straight retro clones paved the way for fresh presentations of old school style rules with tweaks and modifications. Swords & Wizardry was great example of this. It has the feel of OD&D, AD&D, and B/X play but isn't an exact copy of of any of them.

Of course, now these classic original rulesets are available to purchase, and some can even be printed via POD. Of course the availability of these products can be yanked at any time if Hasbro decides they no longer want to sell them. That is why the retro clones still have value.

In other words, they guy who make the accusation that OSR game designers are not designers is an idiot.

I 100% agree with the assessment the guy is an idiot.

Quote from: Ruprecht on May 22, 2025, 08:46:40 AMIf you had one product you were a Professional Game Designer.

Despite having a published title under my belt, I really don't feel comfortable calling myself a professional in this space.

On the other flipper, seeing the kind of crap WotC is putting out these days -- supposedly produced by professionals -- I'm not sure that the moniker is a useful indicator.

Since the OSR took a mostly DIY approach since before OSR was even a term, I would say that it is full of game designers, overflowing, or was. And clever takes, like Knave or Barbarians of Lemuria, while not technically old, utilize old approach and are a simpler way to play, which was one of the ideas from the start; getting people into a simpler way to play. And now we know that this is not just nostalgia as younger generations see the simplicity and join in.

Most detractors, especially on the internet, you will find cannot or simply do not create, they only put others down.

Quote from: GnomeWorks on May 22, 2025, 11:15:08 AMDespite having a published title under my belt, I really don't feel comfortable calling myself a professional in this space.

On the other flipper, seeing the kind of crap WotC is putting out these days -- supposedly produced by professionals -- I'm not sure that the moniker is a useful indicator.

You're a professional in any industry if you made at least $1 from your work; as much as I don't want to call myself a "professional musician", I did make a lot of money playing weekends. It might not be your ONLY profession, but it still counts.

That said, OSR games are inherently designed because they are usually the result of ACTUAL FUCKING PLAY, totally unlike anything WotC seems to be putting out. Endless playtesting, tweaking, then publication, updated when new ideas are formed and tried out...that's legitimate design. Writing two pages about combat wheelchairs is just jackass trolling.

Pundit made some very good points in the vid. And the toothless simpleton, that is Condor DM, is simply very jealous of the fact that the OSR is motoring along while his piece of shit game is rotting away on a virtual shelf.

Even slashing the price twice already still hasn't helped it budge (originally it was 44e!). lol

Regardless... Back to the topic.
Did that OSR game, that someone created, exist before it was made? No. So you've brought a game into existence which makes you a game designer.

Fat Steven's (condor DM) game uses levels and the D100 system. Did he innovate those concepts? I think not. LOL

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 22, 2025, 12:45:35 PMPundit made some very good points in the vid. And the toothless simpleton, that is Condor DM, is simply very jealous of the fact that the OSR is motoring along while his piece of shit game is rotting away on a virtual shelf.

Even slashing the price twice already still hasn't helped it budge (originally it was 44e!). lol

Regardless... Back to the topic.
Did that OSR game, that someone created, exist before it was made? No. So you've brought a game into existence which makes you a game designer.

Fat Steven's (condor DM) game uses levels and the D100 system. Did he innovate those concepts? I think not. LOL

So...he's just butthurt that he can't sell his RPG? The ass-clown recording content WHILE DRIVING, and not paying attention to the road? That poor excuse for a man and a human being?

Ok...I've said it many times before: He's what we called back in the day "mentally retarded".

Quote from: blackstone on May 22, 2025, 01:23:49 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 22, 2025, 12:45:35 PMPundit made some very good points in the vid. And the toothless simpleton, that is Condor DM, is simply very jealous of the fact that the OSR is motoring along while his piece of shit game is rotting away on a virtual shelf.

Even slashing the price twice already still hasn't helped it budge (originally it was 44e!). lol

Regardless... Back to the topic.
Did that OSR game, that someone created, exist before it was made? No. So you've brought a game into existence which makes you a game designer.

Fat Steven's (condor DM) game uses levels and the D100 system. Did he innovate those concepts? I think not. LOL

So...he's just butthurt that he can't sell his RPG? The ass-clown recording content WHILE DRIVING, and not paying attention to the road? That poor excuse for a man and a human being?

Ok...I've said it many times before: He's what we called back in the day "mentally retarded".

He's definitely retarded alright lol.
But he's not the guy who's driving around, this moron is Condor DM (aka - Steven Saunders). The obese guy with no teeth.

His youtube vids are comedy gold.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 22, 2025, 02:17:19 PM

Quote from: blackstone on May 22, 2025, 01:23:49 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 22, 2025, 12:45:35 PMPundit made some very good points in the vid. And the toothless simpleton, that is Condor DM, is simply very jealous of the fact that the OSR is motoring along while his piece of shit game is rotting away on a virtual shelf.

Even slashing the price twice already still hasn't helped it budge (originally it was 44e!). lol

Regardless... Back to the topic.
Did that OSR game, that someone created, exist before it was made? No. So you've brought a game into existence which makes you a game designer.

Fat Steven's (condor DM) game uses levels and the D100 system. Did he innovate those concepts? I think not. LOL

So...he's just butthurt that he can't sell his RPG? The ass-clown recording content WHILE DRIVING, and not paying attention to the road? That poor excuse for a man and a human being?

Ok...I've said it many times before: He's what we called back in the day "mentally retarded".

He's definitely retarded alright lol.
But he's not the guy who's driving around, this moron is Condor DM (aka - Steven Saunders). The obese guy with no teeth.

His youtube vids are comedy gold.

Could have sworn is was that guy. Either way, he sounds like a guy who's face is very punchable.

(quickly looks him up on YouTube)

yep, a very punchable Canadian face...and batshit crazy to boot.

Quote from: Brad on May 22, 2025, 12:16:26 PMYou're a professional in any industry if you made at least $1 from your work

Not really intending to try to derail the thread with getting all philosophical about it, but I'm not sure I agree with this definition.

Like, as a counterpoint? All those paid GMs who popped up out of nowhere on places like roll20. I've heard enough horror stories about those paid-for games that I'd be really hesitant to universally call those GMs professionals. Some of them are, I suppose, as weird as it is to utter the phrase "professional GM," but that's the timeline we live in, I guess.

Similarly, I've got several years experience in fast food. I would be incredibly hesitant to call myself a professional in that line of work, not least of all because I'm not really sure it counts as a profession.

Quote from: GnomeWorks on May 22, 2025, 03:10:56 PM

Quote from: Brad on May 22, 2025, 12:16:26 PMYou're a professional in any industry if you made at least $1 from your work

Not really intending to try to derail the thread with getting all philosophical about it, but I'm not sure I agree with this definition.

Like, as a counterpoint? All those paid GMs who popped up out of nowhere on places like roll20. I've heard enough horror stories about those paid-for games that I'd be really hesitant to universally call those GMs professionals. Some of them are, I suppose, as weird as it is to utter the phrase "professional GM," but that's the timeline we live in, I guess.

Yeah. A kid who sells lemonade at the sidewalk isn't a food industry professional. In general, a professional is someone who genuinely makes a living doing that task - i.e. it is their primary income.

That said, there are plenty of great amateur game designers, and even given the small number of true professionals in RPG design, there are some so-called professionals who just keep putting out polished trash.

Most OSR designers are amateur game designers, but they are still talented and worthy. The key of game design is in the details and implementation, and originality is mostly overrated. The best designers don't try to reinvent the wheel just for the sake of it.