Quote from: Kiero on April 29, 2025, 01:48:58 PMl
Unfortunately, I was reading a licensed system. And as above, my issue wasn't simply that it was random, but that the instructions, to come up with the type of character you want to play first, (knowing there's a shit-load of random stuff immediately after) was stupid.

That game rulebook is hardly the first badly written game to be sold in the market.

Remember, I played Palladium Books growing up, and we liked it too. 

Quote from: Kiero on April 29, 2025, 01:48:58 PM

Quote from: Spooky on April 29, 2025, 09:04:53 AMPlay GURPS dude

Unfortunately, I was reading a licensed system. And as above, my issue wasn't simply that it was random, but that the instructions, to come up with the type of character you want to play first, (knowing there's a shit-load of random stuff immediately after) was stupid.

That IS fucking stupid.

My solution is still to play GURPS. Reason being you come up with a character concept then build it out in as much detail as you want to.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 29, 2025, 03:48:43 PM

Quote from: Kiero on April 29, 2025, 01:48:58 PMl
Unfortunately, I was reading a licensed system. And as above, my issue wasn't simply that it was random, but that the instructions, to come up with the type of character you want to play first, (knowing there's a shit-load of random stuff immediately after) was stupid.

That game rulebook is hardly the first badly written game to be sold in the market.

Remember, I played Palladium Books growing up, and we liked it too.

Yep, us too. Heroes Unlimited was my first. We'd just make guys with sub machineguns and jeeps with machineguns/missiles on them. Ninjas and Superspies was a nice addition

They were "bad" games but its all we knew/had and played the shit out of them. I spent the most time on Recon, my buddy loved Rifts.

I lost all the books at some point. Rebought Revised Recon a few years back - man that is a horrible game! The combat system makes no sense at all. The miniatures rules in the back are even more non sensical but we played and had a lot of fun somehow.

Recently rebought TMNT and ran a one shot. It reminded me of the main system. The main Palladium combat system is really neat I think. Much better than DnD.

Venger created a game called Crimson Dragon slayer Micro that did away with characteristics all together. It was kind of eye opening how much chuff this removed. I mean if we are going to have Characteristics we should use them more, like roll under stat for skills like Black Hack. At least that feels like a direct correlation and not the one step removed system they have using the modifier added to go over a DC in 5E (and others).

I am not aware of any system that forces you to do things in that order, but I can see why people would feel pushed to do so.

I'm not a fan of rolling stats at all. I think rolls are for playing in the session and assigning ability scores is best with a point buy or standard array system. Assuming the system does something like that.

Quote from: Kiero on April 27, 2025, 06:56:32 AMEncountered this recently, the system doesn't really matter because it's a general principle. It amazes me in the 21st century, with almost half a century of game design and play experience that people still write rulebooks this way.

What I mean is they have a chargen process which begins with "come up with a character concept". As in dream about the sort of character you want to play.

Then follow with a random method of assigning attributes or other game-critical character stats. Meaning whatever you came up with initially will either have to be drastically skewed or even binned entirely depending on the fall of the dice.

Note this is not a rant about random chargen - but about doing futile things in the wrong order. If your game has randomness significant enough to essentially determine the things that matter about the character, roll stats first, then get to rationalising what they mean as a character concept.

Otherwise you're just encouraging pointless expenditure of time and effort for no good reason.

Disclaimer, this system I have come up with is not an endorsement of "concept first then stats" system, just a way to address the problem.  I grew up with "stats first then concept" and so I kinda live in both systems.
I have come up with a rough system so far to address this:

Come up with concept
3d6 for each attribute,  +1d6 for attributes that are strong for your race and/or class that you have chosen.
So you end up with 3d6 in some attributes,  4d6 or even 5d6 in others, keeping the 3 highest.
This way you don't get a guarantee of high stats but you at least on average have higher stats relevant to the build you went for.
Then, incorporate some system where its easier to raise the stats relevant to your concept as you level up, such as rolling 1d6 when you level up to see if you are able to raise strength for a fighter, or int for a wizard, that sort of thing.